Mike and Chris talk about the new DJI Ronin 4D. It’s a Cinema camera and it’s a 4 axis gimbal. All novelty aside, how will it be used in the real world? is it innovation that will challenge the other camera manufacturers to step up their game, or is the gamble by DJI a losing proposition. That and more on this episode of the Videomaker Podcast.
Mike Wilhelm: Today on The Videomaker Podcast, Chris and I talk all about the new DJI 4D. It’s a really, really wild camera. If you haven’t heard about this, it’s been out, the news has been out for a couple weeks, I recommend you look this up, look at a photo of it. It’s like a cinema camera with a gimbal attached to the front that holds the lens and the sensor. A really bizarre form factor, does some really innovative things, so there’s a lot to discuss here. As always, if you’ve been listening to the podcast and you enjoy it, we’d love it if you went to iTunes or Spotify and hit the subscribe button, or the heart button, or the follow button, or the like button, whatever it’s called in your podcast app. It’s a big help for us and hopefully it’s more convenient for you. So with all that out of the way, let’s get on with the show.
Mike: Welcome to The Videomaker Podcast, I’m Mike Wilhelm and with me, as always, is Chris Monlux.
Chris Monlux: Hello.
Mike: And boy, some more exciting news, I know it’s been a couple weeks since we last met up to discuss the MacBook Pro. So this news is a few weeks old now, but I think it’s worth discussing. The DJI Ronin 4D, a new cinema camera, I guess. Which is… I don’t know, Chris, it’s like its own form factor, it’s part camera, part robot, which I guess is not new for DJI, but certainly new to the pro video market.
Chris: Yeah. The idea here is it’s a camera and it’s a gimbal and it’s a camera gimbal.
Mike: Yeah, with no propellers.
Chris: Yeah, exactly. But it’s a four-axis gimbal, so you have your normal axises and then you also have up and down, like a sled and vest would offer you.
Chris: So it’s definitely ready to go right on set and start shooting. Which if you’re a specialty shooter that shoots handheld or Steadicam, this is like your dream come true. Now, you can not have… Well, it’s probably, I don’t know, maybe it’s heavier than what you’re used to if you’re used to wearing a sled and vest. The weight’s distributed everywhere.
Mike: Well you… Put an Easyrig on it or something.
Chris: Yeah, I guess that’s true, but regardless, it’s all in one. It’s super weird looking, looks kinda like a little dinosaur with its head sticking out.
Chris: It’s got removable handles on it that you can control from another location, because it’s DJI, they have the ability to wirelessly transmit video from it too. There’s a lot of technologies in drones that haven’t made it into the normal workflow of cameras and I think this is what I hope it is. I don’t know if this is gonna be a camera for everyone.
Mike: It’s certainly not.
Chris: I don’t shoot handheld all the time, or much at all. I’m curious, ’cause we should be getting one maybe today or maybe Monday, but how useful is this when I don’t wanna shoot handheld?
Mike: Well, you know, Chris, you mentioned this to me the other day that, this is a handheld camera and I wouldn’t, I obviously wouldn’t argue that this is a camera optimized for handheld shooting. And that’s certainly what DJI is showing off, its handheld capabilities, but at the same time, I don’t see anything that precludes it from being a stationary camera. Why couldn’t you just put it on a tripod or a slider?
Chris: I think you could. Well, slider might be a hard one because it’s a weird weight distribution. Might be a hard one to keep from sagging or something like that.
Mike: All you need there is a plate that shifts it.
Chris: Yeah, whatever that ends up being. I think it’s just one of those things where it’s, it might not be the best tool for that because of something… But let’s go down ’cause this is interesting to me, 35mm, full frame, CMOS sensor. Now, it’s got a DX mount, which is DJI’s mount and they have three lenses for it: 24, a 35 and a 50mm f2.8. But you can also get a E-mount adapter for it and there’s…
Mike: I don’t think it’s an adapter. I think the whole mounting system it comes off, is replaced.
Chris: Okay, so you have just a DSC that you put in there so it’s got probably same flange distance or something?
Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chris: And the really cool thing about that is there’s a bunch of Sony lenses that are supported for this. This reminds me of when the Inspire 2 and the Zenmuse X5 cameras came out, it was like, “What lenses can I use on this?” And I’m curious, ’cause I’m not sure if they’re… What lenses, if they ship with lenses or is it without? I haven’t looked deep enough in that, but you can shoot, let’s see here, it’s up to 6K raw. Let’s see, Apple Pro Res raw. Let’s see here… Where’s…
Mike: DJI, by the way has on their 4D site, a document of the lens compatibility.
Chris: Yeah, yeah.
Mike: It’s pretty extensive. There’s a lot of Sony lenses on here and these are only lenses…
Chris: It said Sony mounts, but it could be a Sigma, it could be a Tamron lens and then…
Mike: Yeah, they’ve got Zeiss on here, they’ve got Sigma, all that.
Chris: Seems like the support though for multiple lenses is really the E-mount, is really the…
Mike: For sure, yeah. E-mount is… And there’s… Well, I don’t know, I don’t wanna say 10 times more, but probably four times more than any other category.
Chris: There’s actually a list which is…
Mike: Yeah, exactly.
Chris: Different than in the past when the Zenmuse came out, it was like, “These are the lenses that work with it. It’s not gonna balance with anything else.” And that’s also what they’re taking into court here, is balancing the gimbal, this is, instead of worrying about the camera that goes on the gimbal, you’re having to worry about the weight of the lens and that kind of thing, so that should be interesting.
Mike: Yeah and also the connectivity with the camera itself, because of the crazy focusing system.
Chris: Yes, you have to have focus by wire, which of course is perfect for Sony lenses. They’re all that way and gives you a lot more control with that, which is really pretty awesome that you could give someone else control over that while you’re operating it. That’s and just from right out of the box, it seems pretty cool. I love that it’s… I’m curious like, whose sensor is this? This is… Have we seen a full frame sensor from DJI before? We’ve seen Hasselblad big sensors, but they’re not saying this is a Hasselblad sensor or anything. Maybe it is and maybe it came from that thing and likely Sony is making it, ’cause I think they make just about everybody’s sensor, but it’s just interesting, it’s like and they’re saying dynamic range of 14 stops, which is good, it’s not like crazy cinema camera good, like something you’re gonna find out of high-end cinema camera, you’re gonna find definitely a couple to a few more stops there, but that’s still nothing to scoff at.
Chris: You can shoot in D-log, it’s got an LHG profile, it’s got built-in ND filters, nine stops of ND filters, which I think is a really big deal, just for the sake of, let’s start building in ND filters in the cameras, let’s really, still photographers need them too and, like on the Sony RX100, they have an electronic ND filter built in and that’s just a little point and shoot, but it’s because they know the lens that’s on there ’cause it’s always on there and so it’s harder to build those things in, but you look up into the Sony’s FX line, like the FX6 and they have that variable electronic ND which is just rad, those are the types of things, don’t give me more resolution, don’t give me more dynamic range, give me better workability, I would really love to have awesome NDs in everything.
Mike: That’s one of the features of the old ENG camcorders which, it was a great feature which is a shame that it hadn’t made it into these new interchangeable lens cameras until just recently.
Chris: Yeah, well, that’s why I like the adaptors for the Canon R Series or R cameras, just to be able to have EFs on there, you can have built-in NDs on any EF lens if you use that adapter, but it’s an expensive adapter, but it’s a variable ND. I mean and variable NDs are cheap anyway.
Mike: Yeah, for sure.
Chris: I remember getting excited about that, I’m excited about an adapter, I must be growing up. I don’t know, I was… And being like, “Oh this, I can see the use of this,” and that’s what I always get excited about, it’s like when they say something, I’m like, “I could use that for this,” like, “Oh, I wanted to do that.” I remember the first time they were demoing drones following another drone, I’m like, “I could use drone to follow drone, I wanna try that.” And of course it failed miserably, it was not… The technology was not there and obviously what they were showing us was not real, but I think you could be there now with the Air 2S that we just reviewed, I’m wondering if it’s maybe too small, maybe it won’t be depending on how close you are to whatever it is, but it might do that. So I’m just curious of like what kind of technology is gonna come out of these… DJI is making a camera, so who’s gonna be the next to make a gimbal-integrated camera? I don’t think anybody else is positioned for it.
Mike: The thing with DJI is they’re a robotics company.
Mike: Right? Sony makes a lot of things, I don’t think they make robots, Canon doesn’t make robots, Samsung…
Chris: They do, PTZ cameras are robots.
Chris: Yeah, I guess so.
Chris: And those are robotic and that’s robotic movement and that kind of thing, but Sony’s not making any gimbals, there’s not a gimbal from Black Magic or Canon, so they might have to work with somebody else, which we’ve seen before, how Zeiss is on a lot of Sony stuff, they’re discreet companies, they’re not connected in any way, they’ve worked in partnership to make things happen. So I think that’s, it can happen, but just like DJI to come out with something that no one can catch up to really quickly.
Mike: You know what? And…
Chris: And that’s what’s kept them in the drone leadership market is their ability to release the next features that are a year away in other brands’ drones now, so they’re always ahead.
Mike: It’s clear that they invest a lot in R&D.
Mike: That they put a big emphasis on innovation, which is just so refreshing to see in the camera market where we have seen for years, linear progression in camera capabilities. Autofocus that is better than the last autofocus, more resolution…
Chris: A little more, a bit depth, maybe or…
Mike: Yeah, exactly, better low light performance, but these sort of iterative things from camera to camera, it’s great to see something that’s just kind of out of the left field and totally bizarre, not bizarre, but just new and there’s a lot of things about this camera that are unusual, I’ll say that and exciting, but you know what the thing that… And I think the gimbal is maybe, but, might get the most attention because it’s sitting there stuck to the front of the actual body of the camera.
Chris: It makes it look so strange, yeah.
Mike: Yeah, it doesn’t even look like a camera.
Mike: But the thing that is most interesting to me is the LiDAR auto-focusing system.
Chris: Yeah, that should be really interesting to see what that means as far as performance go, ’cause everybody else is talking about face detection, your contrast detection, you’re talking about dual pixel autofocus from Canon, or a combination of contrast and face detection. This is different, this is getting information from the sensor based on light.
Mike: Like real depth.
Chris: Yeah and giving you that information, so that should be really interesting and on the gimbal, you need good autofocus, so it makes a good sense.
Mike: Yes, exactly.
Chris: Now, the big catch about this is, the LiDAR, there’s a little adapter that goes on the top of it, that goes… It’s actually another camera that is doing that and I think that’s extra.
Mike: Oh, is it?
Chris: Yeah, I think that’s not included in…
Mike: That’s a bummer.
Chris: I think it’s… They’re still LiDAR but unfortunately the presentation I got was quite sped up, but let’s see here. I don’t know what else I… Where I could find it, but, yeah, it seems really interesting… Let’s face it, this is an Osmo to the next level, right?
Mike: A LiDAR range finder is in the box.
Chris: In the box, so it’s…
Chris: But it’s an extra thing, it’s not maybe something you have to buy extra, but it’s not…
Mike: It’s in it, like it’s the camera…
Chris: Yeah, you put on top of it, which is great, which is cool, ’cause LiDAR, I’ve seen LiDAR being used in other technology, I’ve never seen it in this capacity, so that’ll be really interesting.
Mike: This is another step in the direction that it is an argument against the, “Never use autofocus,” philosophy. Autofocus is getting very good and we haven’t tried this but it looks like it’s gonna be quite good.
Chris: Yeah, well, I’ve been escaping it more and more, because right now, you and I are both on autofocus in this shot. And I use it, given we’re not dynamic at all, we’re just sitting here so it finds a face and it stays with it and we’re giving it a lot of light, so it’s not hard. But, absolutely, some of the newest technologies in autofocus are not only usable, they might be better than you. They might be able to do what you wanted to do in better ways. One thing… What I really like is what you can do with the new iPhone footage and you can actually change the focus point after the fact and you can do all that and that’s… I actually didn’t mention it in our past one, but in the new MacBook Pro, in the actually new Final Cut, it’ll take that data and you can actually adjust it in Final Cut.
Mike: Yeah, so there’s another innovation that we’re kind of waiting on the camera industry to catch up with, is this multi-lens systems that allow you to do that kind of stuff.
Chris: Yeah. What I hope is, I hope flexibility with… The workflow flexibility, it might be something that we see innovation in and I think this is one of those things where I no longer have to put a camera on a gimbal, it’s ready to go. It’s the camera that you shoot that way and the question is, if you shoot a lot that way, how is it gonna be as a normal camera as well, that I… That’s what I’m real curious about. We get it on a tripod and try to use it like I would anything else and see if it’s cumbersome or strange, ’cause it is a new form factor and everything. But I just think about the trade shows and what would have been NAB.
Chris: Is DJI gonna have a big old booth because they have cameras now? ‘Cause all the camera companies all have big old booths. So does that mean they’re truly stepping into that world, ’cause DJI also has their enterprise and agricultural drones and that kind of stuff, but this is continuing in this digital imaging space in a much bigger way than I’d say even drones. Drones are especially the tool… This might be more useful than a drone, or it should be. It’s a camera by itself, but… I know, I have a friend that shooting a documentary he needed a stable shot, you know what he did? He grabbed his Mavic and he did the shot ’cause it’s got a built-in gimbal and he just didn’t turn on the blades and he shot it.
Mike: He just held it?
Chris: Yeah, just hand-held it and got the shot he needed, no one ever knew. And it was fine. So, this is technology people are using on the cheap, I guess. And all the gimbal companies are gonna have to step it up too. And what new things can they offer? I remember seeing the first gimbal from ZHIYUN-TECH and from, one from DJI that actually allowed you to have camera control within the handles and stuff. Now that’s pretty normal across all gimbals. So, what’s the next thing that can make those better? I’m not sure, lighter, easier to operate, I’m not sure.
Mike: Yeah. You can look at the low-end and the high-end now, I mean, this is not a cheap camera. I think, what is it, 7200 bucks or something?
Chris: That’s for the 8K. Yeah, I think it’s in the mid 10,000, like 58 or something like that price.
Mike: Yeah so, pretty expensive camera. We also have this on the low-end with DJI’s Osmo cameras. And so the question is, at what point do mid-level cameras have this gimbal built-in in a way that is mainstream? I don’t know. I don’t know if it will happen or not, but can you imagine a $1200 camera like a Sony Alpha that just has a gimbal kind of built-in by default? I’m not sure about that.
Chris: Well, stabilizing footage, I got the prices here, $7200 and almost $11500 for the 8K. So yeah, you’re right. What I think with… Apple does a lot of computations in stabilizing their footage, I think they have a good reason to know that no one’s gonna post a video that’s all bouncy and everything. So they’re working on electronic stabilization through computation in phones. Also GoPro, also spending lots of energy in that and other action cameras and that kind of thing. But we’re seeing innovations in sensor stabilization, so we’re getting new stabilizations outside of just optical stabilization that we can offer that are not gimbal and everybody’s been saying gimbal-like stabilization and that kind of thing. But it’s not really… You shoot something on a gimbal, you can do what you like and it’s awesome money versus just going around handheld. But there’s gimbals that are 100 bucks for your phone.
Mike: Yeah, exactly.
Chris: That are rad and easy to use and even the high-end one, maybe it’s 200 bucks, that’s gonna be rad for that. But surely all of the camera or the phone manufacturers have been working really hard to do that. It’s one of the reasons why you have to accept what the iPhone shoots is because if you got the footage before what Apple does to it, it wouldn’t have any stabilization on it and the post-processing and that’s some of the biggest strength is the software in iPhones to not only make the footage look as best it can but also stabilizing it.
Mike: Yeah, so going back to the ZHIYUN-TECH, what do they do? I think that the market where it’s gonna hold steady for them in the sense that the hybrid shooter style cameras, the cameras that people are using for photography and the like, they will never have built-in drones… Or not drones, gimbals. Photographers aren’t gonna put up with that.
Chris: There’s no need for them.
Mike: Yeah, exactly. So as long as those cameras exist, I think that the dedicated gimbals will exist, for… You wanna either spend 100 bucks to add that functionality on when you need it.
Chris: Totally. But on the high-end, right, so you have your full-size camera, now, you have… I’m wearing a Steadicam and some way to support it, that’s a lot of stuff to deal with. The question is, is that image quality from that camera worth all of that headache versus just having this ready-to-go shoot camera?
Mike: Probably depends on what happens with lens technology. It’s not unusual to see a 50-pound lens on a motion picture set.
Chris: Oh yeah and because you have a big old tripod that can handle it and all the rest, all those kinds of things. So I imagine we’ll see all of it. Drones of all kind are being used for all types of production even if they are consumer drones and then there’s the professional stuff that’s actually taking a cinema camera in the sky. So I think all that, it should be pretty interesting. I actually just thought about it though, is, Sony has the Peak drone, their new drone that you could put a Sony Alpha camera on. Maybe this is… So that’s somewhat of a robot… I bet you Sony makes robots. I guarantee they…
Mike: They make some… Yeah.
Chris: In Japan, they may probably make robots of some sort, but this is a robotic control, which they’re at least doing probably at their factories let alone having the technology into their tools. So we’ll probably see some competition in here. And the problem is, it’s probably pretty niche, so it’s unlikely we’re gonna continue to see really vigorous competition in this category, but at least there’s gonna be another choice. So, whenever something comes out, there’s always someone that can do it based on how they’re positioned, that can put another option out there, even if… You look in the drone market, DJI might own 85% of the drone market, but there’s still some companies that are getting by with that 15%. So being number two, even if number one is a giant, is still probably pretty profitable.
Mike: So imagine what the next few years look like for DJI here. These cameras could, that sort of the gimbal technology of it could shrink down. The whole system could shrink down for all we know, so that it’s not as cumbersome to use as a regular camera… You said like, this seems like it’s a hand-held camera primarily. If you’re not doing a lot of hand-held, you wouldn’t get it. But if the… Like the GoPro. If the stabilizing technology was not a big distraction, I guess, from normal production, then maybe that just becomes the default, in which case, there is big problems, I guess, for the camera manufacturers because, yes, the same thing happens to the camera industry that happened with the drone industry. I mean, what are you gonna see, RED and Canon and ARRI and all of that splitting up that 15% of what’s left?
Mike: I don’t think so.
Chris: The other, Zeiss does not have any interest in being there. Well and the difference there will be picture quality. It’s really interesting when I got the presentation, we got a lot of presentation about how this form factor, what it’s supposed to be working with and I have not seen any footage, I’m sure there’s some on here, but I’m waiting to shoot my own. What does it look like? If it’s 6k, cool, but there’s other 6k cameras that are far… You can get 12k for 599 or something like that from Black Magic right now obviously… Probably about a similar sized camera. What are we getting there? Every brand is doing it a little different. Sony’s got their catalyst, which is their post production software that’s taking in gyro data from your camera and information there to be able to get and control the post-production stabilization of your footage even more, getting to use the metadata from the phone, which is really innovative and awesome. This is the kind of stuff your phone’s been doing, but getting that kind of technology into a camera, Sony is uniquely positioned to have both a phone and a camera, cool, it makes sense that the phone technology is in here and this is drone technology going into a camera. So it’s just really prospective there. I’m still curious about how well it’ll look. If I had to set up sticks or I had a gimbal already set up, I might not set up the sticks. I might just do that shot hand-held and hope it’s stable enough.
Mike: Assuming it’s a quick set up, right?
Chris: Yeah, yeah, of course, there’s all sorts of shooting involved, but there might be times where you’re like, Well, I’m not gonna pull out my sticks ’cause I don’t need it, that’s gonna be stable enough, it’s not gonna be shaky or anything and I don’t want this to be static anyway, so a little bit of movement will be good. And that might make faster productions. That’d be great.
Mike: If you look at some of their sample footage here, it could easily be shot on a dolly in terms of how smooth that… What do they call… The Z axis stabilization is. Imagine being on set and not having to set up a dolly, it’s that smooth.
Chris: Yeah, well or I think of mounting on a vehicle or something, you no longer have to have that following truck or whatever. This is something you could probably… And we’ve already been mounting gimbals in that way, but now it’s far less… Far smaller in that way and really it’ll be… I’m sure they’ll be able to make this smaller, they always can make it smaller it seems like, once you have the technology and there’s a desire for people to buy it, then they’ll put the energy into doing it otherwise. Now the one thing I can say that I’ll be curious in time if we have any of these issues, because DJI is a Chinese company and that we start to see other people’s technology showing up in their products or whatever it is, I’d be curious about that just ’cause they have a whole different view on copyright and all the rest, it would be interesting to see how that could play out, ’cause I’m sure… There’s just so much competitive benefit for the way the Chinese government has their industry and all the rest that it just makes it really hard for entities that aren’t as big as the Chinese government to do those things and to get that data. So it’ll be interesting. I don’t think that there is anything outward, and definitely nothing we know of that DJI is doing as far as stealing information about the biggest rumors. They’re using the drone footage to make maps of the US or something and I’m like, just go to Google Earth, it’ll be fine.
Mike: Do you think you could put a matte box on this? I bet you can’t.
Chris: Yeah, it’d probably be hard.
Mike: It looks like just off the… Balance issues aside, looks like it would block the LiDAR sensor for whatever that’s worth.
Chris: Well, let’s face it, what do you use a matte box for? You use it to block… To help hold contrast, to help lens glares and that kind of stuff. There’s probably a hood or a lens hood that goes on them, just like any kind of lens has a hood to do the same thing, but they’re there to hold ND filters. In cinema cameras they’re used for filters and the rest, so you don’t need those, they’re built in so maybe it’s not as necessary.
Mike: Well, unless you’re putting other kinds of filters on there, putting a polarizer, or you just need to set the hood, the shade.
Chris: Yeah. You got glare that’s coming from a certain direction.
Mike: Yeah, which is not… You don’t really worry about that so much when you’re doing handheld because it’s kind of built into the process, but if you did want to put it on a set of sticks under a controlled situation, kind of want to flag off stray light.
Chris: Yeah, I think there’s going to be some workflow things that people run into that this is not possible to use it for X, Y or Z. But that’s true for every camera. Every camera has got a limitation and it’s got a use case that’s not gonna work for, but then there’s gonna be other ones where it’s a homerun. The Steadicam operators that are getting older, it’s like, “Oh, something lighter and I can do same quality and I don’t have to put damage on my knees or whatever it is.” It might be the thing that changes Steadicam operation. What changed Steadicam operation? Well, the invention of it. And now since with motorized gimbals we’re seeing a lot less of those Steadicams.
Mike: So, prediction time, Chris. How long before DJI invents a robot that is a camera operator?
Chris: Did you mean make a PTZ camera?
Mike: That walks around, that can climb stairs.
Chris: Is it going to have a bad attitude when it doesn’t get the right food and it’s…
Mike: Demand union membership.
Chris: Yeah. Does it pay dues? I hope not. But I think that probably the next step on this stuff is smaller and cheaper. It’s likely, that seems to be how DJI does its general…
Mike: So it’s gonna squeeze out the mid level, right? It’s already small and cheap as it can get practically with the Osmo level.
Chris: Yeah. Well, in the Osmo, they’re not doing the same interchangeable lens, all the… They’re not putting the high end camera anymore. It’s the small guy.
Mike: Don’t they have a handheld camera, a handheld Osmo that has the Zenmuse?
Chris: I’m not sure if they’re making it anymore. But let’s see here, would be the… Osmo, looks like they had the Pocket 2, otherwise…
Mike: DJI Osmo Pro, Zenmuse?
Chris: Could be Zenmuse, yeah. And gimbals, it’s not in there.
Mike: DJI Osmo Pro Handheld 4k.
Chris: What cameras are put on the Zenmuse X7?
Mike: Don’t know here. DJI Osmo Pro RAW. Yeah, I think we reviewed this years ago.
Chris: Does it get big plate on it and everything? I don’t know if they’re selling that one anymore that takes SSDs that goes underneath it. The idea there was that you’re going to have an Inspire and you’re going to take the camera off the Inspire and put it on the little handle and then you can use them interchangeably, but I think that’s a farther stretch than using this on sticks.
Mike: Confirmed that the Osmo Pro and RAW is no longer in production.
Chris: Yeah. It didn’t last long. That was kind of a cumbersome thing. That was this big.
Mike: Well, that was the mid level. So maybe the mid level isn’t a thing.
Chris: Yeah, but DJI does such a great job of making subsets underneath their drones at least right and they’re so good at like that… Yeah, we’re gonna discontinue the two because we’re going to make a new model. And that’s going to be all the technology in this super cheap version, like the Sparks or whatever the small drones, like those things compete with the Phantom 4 for features and picture set and it’s like… Phantom 4 is this big thing, it was expensive and then it’s like, “Oh, here’s the $400 one. Does the same thing. Fits in your pocket.” So they tend to have that release process. So I can imagine that probably going along the same thing. But I mean, I wasn’t expecting to have a camera, so.
Mike: I’ve been surprised by DJI many times. So who knows what they will come out with.
Chris: They’re sly. From just staying ahead of the curve. They’re just always introducing something that will make… Just like Apple does. And they’re releasing that thing that you can’t get it anywhere else. And it’s like, that’s the thing that drew you to it in the first place. And you’re like, “I guess I gotta get that.” So yeah, but you got to get a haircut.
Mike: Yeah, I gotta bolt. So let’s call it there, right?
Mike: All right. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in. We’ll catch you next time. Big thanks to everyone for listening. As always, if you want to support the show, we’d love it if you subscribe to our newsletter, we deliver it several times a week. And we deliver all kinds of tutorials and reviews and buyer’s guides straight to your inbox so you can sign up for that at videomaker.com/newsletter. It’s the best way to support what we do here. So for Chris Monlux and everyone here at Videomaker, I’m Mike Wilhelm and you’ve been listening to The Videomaker Podcast. We’ll catch you next time.