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July 1, 2013 at 12:45 AM #68217AnonymousInactive
Well I'm shooting a dance video, and I want it to seem very cinematic. I want it in 24fps. During the dance I want to slow-motion during some moves. Should I record the whole video in 60fps, and if possible convert the whole video to 24fps (cinematic feel), and conform the slomotion parts?
Is it possible to convert a video recorded in 60fps to 24fps to get the cinematic feel?
July 1, 2013 at 2:48 AM #208069rs170aParticipant
In my opinion, you'd be much better off shooting only the segments you want to slo-mo in 60 and all the rest in 24 to keep the cinematic feel. You can do the 60-24 in AE or in Vegas.
July 1, 2013 at 6:08 AM #208073
" Well I'm shooting a dance video, and I want it to seem very cinematic. I want it in 24fps. " Yup, strobing and/or blurring should do the trick . . . .
July 1, 2013 at 12:43 PM #208085JosephParticipant
Part of the 'cinematic feel' is the motion blur you get from 24p with a 180 degree shutter angle (twice as fast as your frame rate – in this care shoot 24p with as close to 1/48 shutter speed as possible. On my camera that's a 1/50.)
Be careful with camera movement or you'll add what is in my opinion an excessive amount of jutter with these settings. This is just one of the reasons you seldom see fast pans in movies.
The following is the way I understand the process – I have yet to experiment with this myself, so if I'm wrong, someone please tell me. 🙂
As for the 60p to to 24p conversion, that's a bit of a misnomer for what you're trying to do. A conversion should give you the same video, only now wrapped inside a 24p frame rate. What you want to do is simply slow down your video until it matches a 24p frame rate thereby giving you the slow motion with your footage shot at 60p (and a 1/120 shutter speed – I would round up, not down, for best image quality) in a 24p project. If my math is correct, you should set your speed to 40% in your NLE for those clips to get them knocked down the 24p, although they should still look pretty good even slower.
As for shooting the rest in 60p – I know the motion blur CAN be done in After Effects, but why punish yourself? Just shoot it 24p in camera like Mike said.
My best advice would be to experiment well before the big day and see what you like best and how the process works within your particular NLE.
July 1, 2013 at 7:06 PM #208091Daniel BrunsParticipant
I totally agree with Dellwovideo, with one exception (and I say this with a lot of respect for his answer). I would be careful in slowing down the 60p video in a 24p timeline. Depending on the way your editing system interprets the native playback framerate of your 60p video file, it could automatically treat or convert your video as 24p when you play it back in a 24p timeline. This will result in a video that plays back at normal speed when you place it in your timeline and most importantly, strobey video when you slow down your 60p footage. Instead, I would make sure that your editing software is interpreting the playback framerate of your 60p video as 24 fps. This way, when you drop your video into your timeline or sequence, it will already be slowed down by 1.5x.
In order to get it to play at normal speed, you'll have to increase the speed to 250% (someone correct me if I'm wrong here, my math isn't always accurate). In order to get the video to play in slow motion, you can simply decrease the speed of the video and it should play back with a full frame for every frame per second in your video making it look great while getting rid of the strobey look.
If you're editing in After Effects, you can make sure that your 60p footage is interpreted for playback at 24 fps by right-clicking the video file in your Project window and choosing Interpret Footage and Main from the drop-down menu. Then under the Frame Rate heading, Choose the radio button that says "Conform to frame rate:" and type in 23.976 into the blank field next to it. Hit OK and you're good to go!
Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to do the same thing in Sony Vegas. Maybe someone else can chime in to help!
May 2, 2016 at 6:15 AM #213895
For travel / tourism videos shoot in Action cameras. Should I go for 60 FPS or 24 FPS if I want to achieved cinematic look ?
May 2, 2016 at 7:24 AM #213898
WHY, a ‘ cinematic look ‘ ? If you’re going to re-recreate Gone With The Wind, or you’re going to make film copies of your video, shoot in 24P. That would be the only reason I could think one would shoot in 24P. And then again, WHY 60 FPS. Do you think that because 60 is greater than 24 or 30 that it is better?
May 4, 2016 at 2:38 AM #213909paulearsParticipant
I think you have some of the theory and practice a bit mixed up.
Dance (something I’m involved in) is fluid, beautiful if done well and above all, graceful. It can also be rather fast. Cinematic really worries me, because nobody ever defines it properly. Gone with the Wind, The Big Country, and perhaps 2001 a space Odyssey could be described as Cinematic, at least in my definition book. However, the term, has been hijacked and distorted to become something more ‘arty’. Very often by blurring the background, reducing depth of field, and introducing blur. All things that work against dance, unless for effect.
This daft notion that Cinematic =24fps is lunacy. It depends on what the subject material is. I view TV as TV, and huge screens with huge amounts of content as Cinema.
Now the dance specific problems.
Software can now convert almost anything to anything. If you shoot dance in 60fps, and can replay that in a 60fps capable chain to the end display, that’s brilliant in definition terms. Arms legs, people – they will all be moving in dance. Arms in particular, and feet in ballet, can move damn fast. Lets say a movement is quick, and lasts 4 frames in 60fps. The software has to try to make that fit a 24fps timeline? So that’s less than 2 frames of the 4 shot. In most cases, it will be 1 frame, with a few duplicated every now and then to make the 24. So that wonderful graceful arc, is now a sequence of jerks, with an added stutter every few frames to make the maths work. 60 down to 30, or 50 down to 25 is less obvious, because the stutter is missing, and the jerkiness consistent. so is 60 frames, all slightly different better than 30 frames, all more different? I think 60 wins every time. The result with film was a softening of the images because of the shutter exposure time. So called ‘cinematic’ settings fail on sports and fast moving art subjects – they destroy the fluidity. Add any conversion to frame rates not mathematically linked and it’s even worse. Low frame rates can work with some styles of dance – but the usual result is a lack of sharpness. Success with dance is more to do with smoothness – you will improve the result far more with an upgraded pan/tilt head than with fiddling with shutter speeds. Following dance is very similar to shooting showjumping OBs with broadcast cameras. You don’t shoot centre frame as a constant. You have to take into account what dancers call ‘travel’. This means panning forward, allowing the viewer to see the space they are going to move into, then as the action is about to reverse, you need to predict it, so on the turn you have looking room. This looks so much better. If you are shooting on stage, with theatrical lighting and staging, then slightly wider angles, full depth of field, and ultra smooth camerawork will look far more ‘Cinematic’ that any silly frame rate conversions – which always are downwards moves in quality. I see little point capturing image data, then throwing 60% of it away.
May 4, 2016 at 2:59 PM #213914
Been hearing different opinion from different guys.
They say that shooting at 60 fps and convert it to 24 fps will give you choppy clips. Some says its ok.
I don’t know anymore… hehe.
May 4, 2016 at 3:08 PM #213915paulearsParticipant
If you have 60 frames, and you throw 36 away, then smooth movement can’t work – throwing 30 away gives at least the same gap between each one.
August 22, 2016 at 12:26 AM #214414BlackcinamatographyMember
There are definitely a couple idio… I guess I will call them ignorant people that have posted on this thread. Perhaps they have never heard of the “soap opera effect” and the role of 24fps in the suspension of disbelief which in popular culture was most publicized when the director of “The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey” experimented with a high frame rate. The movie was shown in theaters in both 24fps and the high fr. Many people who saw it in the high fr hated it, but some of those same people (I am one of them, although I saw it in 24 first) liked it a lot when they watched it in 24. Please read up on the “soap opera effect” before trying to say that a faster frame rate is better, because the person who originally posted the question is on the right track when saying he wants to use 24fps for a cinematic effect. In general, fantasy is shot in 24fps, and reality (live tv for example) is shot in 30 or 60. If this is for a movie/fantasy type story, or to fit into a larger fictional work he should stick with 24, especially now that many people’s video viewing devices have ways of viewing the content that make it look as if it was shot at a higher fr anyway, and they can choose to view it that way if they want. If it is just the capturing of a performance and is to be viewed for the performance’s sake than he should shoot it at 60. It is possible that he doesn’t have the option of shooting some aspects in 24, and others in 60 if it is a performance, although this would definitely be the best option. Really what he should do is try and find a camera that will shoot at 48fps and then drop half the frames for all the parts he does not want to be slo-mo. He should also do a bit of experimentation before the shoot with different frame rates. I know this is an old thread, but I just can’t stand it when I see such ignorance. Here is a link to a detailed article about frame rates and the soap opera effect: http://www.cnet.com/news/what-is-the-soap-opera-effect/
and another: http://gizmodo.com/5969817/the-hobbit-an-unexpected-masterclass-in-why-48-fps-fails
August 24, 2016 at 9:59 PM #214430roblewis56Participant
why don’t more camcorders shoot at a true 60 fps instead of 59.97 since most displays refresh at 60 Hz or multiple thereof? This mismatch just results in added or dropped frames when rendering?
August 25, 2016 at 5:54 PM #214435JamieMember
Maybe I missed it, but did anybody mention lighting? 60p requires more than 24p.
August 25, 2016 at 8:39 PM #214438roblewis56Participant
Jamie, We are no longer in the film era and I don’t think digital projectors use motors except for cooling fans.
December 6, 2016 at 12:41 PM #214934jpriest1210Member
What in God’s name are you talking about? The original poster is talking about slow motion, not dropping frames. You shoot a clip at 60 frames per second, and then slow the presentation of those frames down to show only 24 of them per second. So, instead of showing 60 frames in one second, it will now take two and a half seconds to show those frames because it’s only showing them at a “SLOWER” rate, hence slow motion. 24 (1 second) + 24 (1 second) + 12 (half second). You aren’t “throwing away” anything. Showing the frames at 24 frames per second is considered “cinematic” because film and theaters back in the day were shot in 24 frames per second and displayed in the theaters as such.
To the original poster, I haven’t really used After Effects, but in Adobe Premiere pro, it’s as simple as “interpreting” the 60fps footage as 24fps. You won’t lose any frames and the “smoothness” of it will depend on what kind of shutter speed you used to shoot. The slower the shutter speed, the more blurred the movement will look. I hope this helps.
May 2, 2016 at 11:02 AM #213902
I’m very newbie to videography so I don’t have any idea. 🙂
So far, they say that if you want cinematic , shoot 24 fps. For Slow mo, shoot 60 fps.
May 4, 2016 at 7:50 AM #213912
In the days before TV productions were shot and edited in a video format, they were shot on film ( 24 fps, progressive ) and the footage was digitized to 30 fps, interlaced for editing and post production. The conversion required finding a way to make 24 frames of film fit into 30 video frames. Obviously, some of the 24 frames had to be repeated. This made for picture ‘ stutter ‘, not a smooth flow! This is the root problem of making video conversions when the frame rates between the two aren’t an even number.
Paulears is correct that many newbys, in their insecurity, think that buying Ultra hi-def cameras and shooting in exotic frame rates, and especially in seeking a ‘ film ‘ look ( whatever that really means ) will overshadow their lack of skill and experience. Practical limitations enter the equation . . . such as storage media and editing horsepower . . . and CERTAINLY how you propose to ‘ distribute ‘ your masterpiece whether YouTube, et al, or friends and family, or social media.
You have to GROW into video production if you ever hope to produce something which will captivate and entertain your Audience. Try out your ideas and see if they actually work.
December 10, 2016 at 8:14 AM #214954CherLSMember
I came across this thread doing a web search looking to troubleshoot a related issue with I am having with shooting in 60 fps. I am directing this to you, as you seem to have a solid understanding of shooting/editing dance footage. I looked at your website and see your company does all sorts of performing arts-related media work. I work in the areas of dance, performance and visual arts and recently did a project (a mask-dance work) in South Korea in which I shot the dance in various spaces in and around a forest, mountain, river and local shrine. I have a Canon EOS C100 Mark II; shooting format: AVCHD. It was the first time I had the capacity to shoot in 60 fps and ignorantly thought that I would be able to easily convert to 24 or 30 prior to working in the timeline, in editing or output. I had read somewhere – probably incorrect information (?) that shooting in high frame rate would give more flexibility and better image quality, even if edited or output to 24 or 30. (I am in the US, so I typically don’t work in 25.) I did not shoot with the intention of slo-mo and you can imagine the problem I am now facing. Having read through many threads here and elsewhere, I realize now I should have shot in 24 or 30 and am wondering what, if anything I can do to correct the problem. It is all compounded by the fact that the nature of my movement as it is in real time is very slow (like the Japanese form of Butoh dance, if you are familiar with that), so converting my 60 fps footage to slo-mo, if I just wanted to go with that, makes my natural movement appear unbearably slow. It also defeats the purpose in creating the contrast that I wish to achieve with the natural performance/movement as it occurs in real time/space.
Here was my work-flow: I imported the AVCHD footage into Premiere Pro and worked with it in its native format without converting at all (wrapping) into a different codec. I have been reading about the pros and cons of that as well and am thinking perhaps I should’ve wrapped it into another codec first before loading it into the timeline. But alas, I did not. (Likely another issue altogether) I also maintained the native 60 fps while editing. The conversion to 30 fps happened when I output (in Encoder), selecting H.264 codec with the HD 1080p 29.97 fps setting. As to be expected the completed movie file does not look good. All of my natural movement looks like it is in slow-motion, the overall movement looks choppy with motion blur and there are some visual artifacts. I know, Paul, you said in the threads that this cannot work (on 05/04/2016) but I am wondering if there is anything at all I can do at this point. I tried some tests based on suggestions online to convert the footage to 24 fps prior to timeline editing, then speeding it back up to 200% (&250%) and it does not work at all.
I would SO appreciate any help from anyone who might suggest a work flow that I can use a) that best works for AVCHD import and 2) to deal with the 60 fps footage I have that I do –not- wish to use for slow-motion imagery. Is there anything at all I can do or am I just going to have either make my entire piece slo-mo or live with the choppy final product? Is there really no export setting to maintain the native 60 fps and/or playback devices that can actually play it? It is likely useless as I would think that the eye cannot perceive it anyway. I realize I am exposing my ignorance here, but that is why I am inquiring to you folks on this forum that are more technically savvy than I. Thanks in advance for your time.
August 25, 2016 at 6:09 PM #214436JamieMember
This is not the complete answer I know, but it’s something to do with US electricity current during the film era to assure the projectors ran at the same speed. Europe has 50hz AC, (PAL50) and North America has 60hz. (NTSC 60) an divisions from this. It was just a simple dividing circuitry used to synch the motor of the projectors.
August 25, 2016 at 6:50 PM #214437
Ummm . . .No! AC line frequency had nothing to do with film frames per second. Things got weird when the industry shot on film and posted on video for a few years. That’s when line frequency and video sync frequency and film frames per second vs video frames per second got all tangled up. Not too long ago, camcorders that advertised 24P were not pure 24P like film. They shot in 30 fps ( well, actually 29.97 fps ) and then threw away frames to result in 24P . . . although not really 24 fps, just a tad less because video sync is 59.94 cps., not 60Hz. Got it?
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