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Atomos Shogun 4K

This topic contains 1 reply, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  The_Colorist 7 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #85156

    I am trying to move into 4K.  I have a Canon Vixia G30, EOS 70d,and EOS-m cameras and love them.  I am going to purchas a new Pro Camcorder.  I have 2 ideas.  1st idea: Purchase Sony PXW-x70, Sony stereo mic, and pay for 4k upgrade Appoximately $3,000.  2nd idea:Purchase Atomos Shogun Video Recorder approximately $2,000.  I want to shoot 1080p at 50mbs or higher with 4.2.2 10 bit color sampling as well as 4k.  Any thoughts?

  • #211902

    The_Colorist
    Member

    Hello Excaliber,

     

    Well the Sony PXW-X70 looks like a good unit for sure. Keep in mind it only has one ring for both focus and zoom. For some of us, it's critical to have dedicated rings, but competely up to you and your shooting style.

     

    I would like to mention though, unfortunately a friend of mine had the PXW-180 (the bigger brother) and it had a tremendous amount of problems. He went back to using his HXR-NX5 units. As I recall he went through 3 from B&H before giving up. So something to be aware of.

     

    As far as using the Atmos recorder, the main problem I see (unless I missed something) is you don't have anything that actually outputs 4K, so using it to record wouldn't really gain anything. You would basically be upscaling and you can do that in software if you would like. Not ideal at all, but possible in a pinch. I've personally had to upscale many times to complete a job..

     

    If you'd like to share your budget and possibly a little more of your goals, I might be able to provide a little more insight.

     

    ~Jakob

  • #211903

    Thanks Jakob,

    I have a budget of $3500 for an upgrade.  The  PXW-X70 seems to have great reviews.  I am just tired of waiting on Canon to have anything in my budget.  I like the idea of native 1080p 422 10bit recording with a 1" sensor.   I shoot High School Football as well as High School Bands.  I shoot with Stereo mics.  I provide college recruiting clips of players.  I shoot a top 5 National team and we play well into December.  I also shoot weddings and aerial video with my DJI drone.  Thanks for any help on a 4k ENG style video camera.

  • #211904

    The_Colorist
    Member

    No problem! That's what I'm here for.

    I can see more clearly now why your leaning towards the X70, I was wondering whether you were shooting for Cinema or ENG style. I actually work with the team that films one of the largest music shows in the U.S. They current shoot with NX5's but are moving to 4K when they can..

     

    Now that I know what you are looking for, let me see what I can come up with. From what I have seen, especially if your leaning towards run-n-gun style shooting, I think the X70 may be the best you can do for that price, but let me see.

     

    ~Jakob

     

  • #211906

    Thanks.  I shoot mostly from tripod.  But, I shoot quite alot run and gun.  I have researched until I can't find anymore.  The x70 seems to be correct for me.  I amm just looking for others opinions with experience.  I have been shooting Canon for 20 years and still consider myself prosumer, even though I am aaked to shoot almost evry week now.  Thanks for any insight.

  • #211909

    The_Colorist
    Member

    After thinking about it,I thought I would add a few things on the X1000 compared to X70.

     

    The maximum aperature the X70 has is f/2.8. The X1000 is f/ 1.8.

     

    The X1000 likely has much better glass having four lens groups. It seems Sony kinda cut corners slightly on the X70, especially since it's just an upgraded AX100.

     

    The X1000 is alo 20X optical zoom. The X70 is only 12X..

     

    The X1000 has dedicated rings, the X70 doesn't.

     

    Just a few more thoughts.

     

    ~Jakob

     

     

  • #211910

    Thanks. I understand trade offs.  I did switch from panasonic years ago to canon and fell in love with the G30.  The video was way better. I have tried Canon XF305 and loved it as well.  Maybe the lure of 4K is clouding my judgment.  I can not complain about my Canons.  But after almost a year, I m ready to move toward 4k.  I am just disapppointed with Canon. and believed they have let me down.  It is hard for me to choose as I have looked at Sony, Panasonic, and JVC.  I just don't know which is better.  I absolutely love my Canon 70d DSLR Video.  I just hate a DSLR for Video, cumberson.  This is why I looked at the x70(1" sensor).  Maybe Sony will get it together with the firmware upgrade.  Thanks for your input.  I am really looking for the best video I can produce within my budget.

  • #211914

    Thanks.  I am glad to see that you seem to get what I am trying to do.  
    Like I said I would stay with Canon, but I have been bitten by the 4k bug and am ready to switch.  who knows it might be a disaster, but with all the research and talking I have done.  The Sony seems right.  I might be wrong but like I said, I am tired of Canon ignoring this segment.  Thanks for any help.

  • #211924

    I bought the pxw-x70 and wow.  The video looks great in early test.  The sensor makes a huge improvement.  I used Sony Catalyst to convert the XAVC long to mp4 and it worked.  I will wait until the codec matures.  Thanks for your help.  I will let you know how things progress with testing.

  • #212212

    I just bought the pxw x70. it is not an upgrade to the AX100. It has XAVC recording (not the XAVC S )which Sony uses for its high end camera's a variable speed zoom to you can do very slow zooming.  Yes would prefer focus ring and a zoom ring. It is like the big and best of the pro camcorders (just sold my Panasonic HMC150) compacted into a very small format. Good part shooting an event this weekend. It takes good video and looks like a real camcorder to get attention when doing interviews on the fly. The one issue I have with a lot of the great hybrid camera's is focus. I a fairly good manually focusing (not easy to see on HD) but sometimes want to refocus over and over and shoot live stuff. 

    Have all the manual attachements like an LCD/focus wheel makes it a clumsy rig. 

    So this compromise has to be dealt with. like switch back and forth on the pxw 70

    with the tiny button that make is manual. I have the Sony a7s with a lot of legacy lens and the Sony 70 200 G lens hope to use this for more magic in the image. Good luck everyone.

  • #211907

    The_Colorist
    Member

    No problem.

     

    Couple things I want to mention about the X70. First, the rolling shutter on the CMOS sensor. That's going to be an issue if your shooting action/sports. It will potentially look really bad. See the X70 is based on the Sony FDR-AX100 and the AX100 had some serious rolling shutter issues.

     

    The second is the lens. IMO it's quite short for what your wanting to do. I found another camera that is a bit of a trade off but still 4k! I really prefer this camera overall. From everything I can find, it does do 10 bit 4:2:2 in certain modes but at the highest frame rate 4K, it cuts it back to 8-bit 4:2:0 to keep up. Frankly, when you dealing with fast footage, you won't notice (IMO). I have seen frames from this camera and IMO they are gorgeous. From what I can tell, Sony makes similar trade offs with the X70.

     

    You do lose the SDI port. But IMO, from what it sounds like you are doing, I don't think that is a big loss. You can grab an HDMI to SDI converter for a few hundred. I know guys that use prosumer camera's (HDMI only) mixed with full ENG SDI camera's right in a show and you'd never know the difference unless somebody told ya :-)..

     

    Another thing though, the 4K on the X1000 is capable of down grading to full HD 4:4:4 in post. Someone actually tested it!

     

    Panasonic HC-X1000 4K-60p/50p Camcorder with High-Powered 20x Optical Zoom

     

    If your still leaning towards the X70, here is a link:

    Sony PXWX70 HD422 Hand Held Camcorder with 3.5-Inch LCD (Black)

     

    Anyway, that my opinion. Both look good and both have thier issues it seems. If you need anything else, just ask..

     

    ~Jakob

  • #211908

    The_Colorist
    Member

    If this helps any (and not to boast either), I had the opportunity to run a full production studio for many years. We ran both DSLR and ENG Style Camera's..

  • #211913

    The_Colorist
    Member

    I know where you are coming from! We used a Canon 5D MKII for video in the studio for many years and just plain fell in love with it. After using Sony ENG for years, when the DSLR came along, it's like we stepped into a new era of video :). I sadly never had the chance to use a XF305 as we used Sony but they are amazing!

     

    I do want to mention one thing I find interesting about Sony broadcast/ENG camera's. It seems consistent that you can get absolutely amazing video off of those sensors but it really requires some tweaking. Not always but many times. I know some guys the run a whole batch of NX5's. The picture they got right off the sensor always looked good but basically like a broadcast camera, good but nothing eye popping. Recently they found a way to alter the color matrix and align it completely with the REC709 gamma curve and color pallet. All I can say, as a colorist, is WOW!! The picture is now amazing!

     

    I do understand why you are leaning towards the X70. Many people do really like it! I was just mainly concerned that your high action footage will look really bad out of the box BUT with some testing and tweak, Sony camera's in the X70 lineup are extremely customizable and flexible!

     

    All I can say for the Panasonic is from what I have seen, the low light capabilities and picture quality of thei model (using a 1/2.3" sensor no less) is amazing! The do make really really good ENG camera's but they aren't Canon, I have to agree. 🙂

     

    I'm not sure if your familiar with Amazon or not, but if you do buy either one of those 2 camera's from my links you should be able to test it and return it if you don't like it within 30 days.

     

    I will look some more and see what I can find within your budget..

     

    ~Jakob

  • #211915

    The_Colorist
    Member

    No problem!

     

    I'll still looking around but I just wanted to mention something and you may know this. Unless something changes, I verified the 4K UHD output of the X70 is also only 4:2:0 8-bit. Looks like the X1000 also has higher bitrate 4K recording though.. The X70 looks to only record at 60Mbps while the X1000 does 150Mbps!

  • #211916

    The_Colorist
    Member

    I was thinking about what you said concerning JVC, Panasonic and Sony..

     

    If your looking for that Cinema "shallow depth of field" look while having ENG form factor, the X70 does seem to fit the bill. The thing with JVC and Panasonic is they make solid ENg camera's and have for years. Sony has been making cinema camera's (F65, F35, etc) and now DSLR's that shoot 4k (A7S). So when it comes to cinema, I feel Sony has more experience. Panasonic has been really stepping up thier game lately though and from what I can see, I really don't think you'll go wrong if you chose the X1000. For one thing, the file format compatibilty is much much better. A lot of people complain about the import situation which I have experienced myself to some degree (we usually used external recording via SDI but sometimes I had to use off the card). It's extremely frustrating and really slows things down.

     

    Funny thing, (from what I have found) the X70 seems to be almost an after thought for Sony, with the paid upgrade etc. And I see people complaining how that that the 4K license seems to be a joke when the consumer version of the X70 (the AX100) has 100Mbps recording for free (again I say FREE) where as the X70 (prosumer) is only 60Mbps and costs quite a bit.

     

    Just a few more thoughts 🙂

  • #211925

    The_Colorist
    Member

    Ok great! I hope it continues to work good for you!!!

     

    I'm sorry couldn't find anything better.. Let me know if you need anything else..

     

    ~Jakob

  • #212542

    RRRoger
    Participant

    I had the X1000 and absolutely loved everything about it except it could not handle really poor low light.

    You do not need a 4k recorder or expensive 28-135 Cine lens to make this work properly like I do with the A7s.

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