Is 1080p possible with camcorders shooting at 24F/30F?

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    • #43472
      AvatarThomasTyndan
      Participant

      Many cameras are implementing the 24F/30F feature to simulate progressive scan, and have it still at 1080i. I haev noticed that the few examples available on the web say nothing as to whether this can be used to make 1080p output video after postproduction. Does anyone know if that is possible?

    • #182448
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      Thomas,

      Strange as it may seem, 1080p is possible with any camera.

      Though it really depends on your editing software more than your camcorder. If you can make a 1080p editing project, then you can drop in any video footage and render it to 1080p. You could do it with some old Hi8 video, or Sony’s 24F HDV. Your video won’t automatically take on the ultra-sharp look of 1080p, as if it were shot natively in that format. But it will be 1080p.

      The cameras you speak of use 1080i because it is a popular standard. Okay, that last bit sounds redundant, but there are unpopular standards:

      http://www.vxm.com/Progvsinter.html

      So when we record progressive video to tape, most camcorders convert it into the interlaced standard for playback, 1080i, but the progressive traits are kept intact. This type of video is commonly described as "24P over 1080i" or "1080i/24P".

      Unless you convert it in your edit software, shooting HDV 24F or 30F will give you 1080i/24F video. Here’s a link on progressive and interlace, to serve as a jumping-off point:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlace

      enjoy,

      andrew at videomaker[/i]

    • #182449
      AvatarThomasTyndan
      Participant

      Perhaps I should clarify, obviously you can make 1080p video out fo anything, but I meant at true resolution. In otherword, pixel for pixel, that there is no scaling involved.

      What I mean is does the 24F/30F LOOK good when it is rendered out at 1080p after whetever the deinterlacing it does happens.?

    • #182450
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      It looks good but not as good as video shot in 1920 x 1080.

      So far no HDV is giving us 1920 x 1080. We get 1920 x 1080 with "magic" non square pixels but if you look at 720p, 1080i and 1080p it would be hard to see much if any difference even on a 50 inch 1920 x 1080 HDTV.

      I always tell people to look at their video from the camera on a large HDTV screen before they edit becuase what it looks like on a computer is not what it looks like on the "big" HD screen.

      This is great stuff we have here but as good as it is MiniDV won’t be the 1920 x 1080p format. Ever.

    • #182451
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      From what I understand, the Canon XH-A1 (and G1) will shoot at 1080p natively at 24 and 30f. The only problem is finding editing software that will work with 1080p natively as well. The only ones I know of are the Matrox Axio system (expensive), Sony Vegas (haven’t been able to confirm this one), and Final Cut Pro (on the Apple).

    • #182452
      AvatarThomasTyndan
      Participant

      I think I can answer for Vegas it does in fact allow for 1080p editing. It does not have a default 1080p project setting, but you can make the field order "none" and it will make it progressive. So yes Vegas does edit in progressive, still my question is more about how the 24F as opposed to 24P is viewed from a NLE standpoint. I cannot find any documentation, probably because such cameras are so new, as to exactly how the 24F uses the 60i and the 2:3:3:2 pull down etc to achieve the format of 1080p/24fps. All I really want to know is if I buy an HD camr4a that uses 1080/24F as opposed to the much more expensive 1080/24p cameras will I still gain full progressive scan resolution?

    • #182453
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      Canon uses 1440 x 1080 like other 1080 HDV MiniDV’s not 1920 x 1080.
      Also Canon is 24f not 24p.

    • #182454
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      It looks like this about sums it up. Is there any confusion?

      It sounds like it’s up to the NLE with regards to how 24f is handled. When I tested the Canon XL-H1 for Videomaker, we couldn’t edit the 24/30f because no NLE at that time supported it. We could watch it, but not edit it.

      – andrew @ videomaker

    • #182455
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      The actual resolution of any HDV camera, available today, doesn’t go much over 700 lines. 1080i HDV is recorded as 1440×1080, so there really is no such thing as 1920×1080 HDV.

    • #182456
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      I know for a fact the only hd camera that shoots 1080p and 24p that is a prosumer camera is the panasonic 200 hd camera
      the downfall to this camera is the p2 cards and the cost the cards are increadibly expensive and the camera is about 5000 dollars itself. I dont kno if the jvc series cameras put out this same stuff though.

      I am also sure that with many softwares you can output in 1080p or 24p if you really want to… i dont think there is much loss your just changing the scan mode.

      Thats what i know correct me anyone ifyou would like

    • #182457
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      correction i think the new cannon hd the 20 i think it is shoots in 1080 p but i dont know about the 24 f ps

    • #182458
      AvatarJockey
      Participant

      chicoab3 Wrote:

      Strange as it may seem, 1080p is possible with any camera. Though it really depends on your editing software more than your camcorder. If you can make a 1080p editing project, then you can drop in any video footage and render it to 1080p. You could do it with some old Hi8 video, or Sony’s 24F HDV. Your video won’t automatically take on the ultra-sharp look of 1080p, as if it were shot natively in that format. But it will be 1080p.

      When you say "any camera", what exactly do you mean? If the video originated as native interlaced, then all you can do is deinterlace and upscale it, and unless you have a really good box like Teranex, the result won’t be better than simply watching the original video on a TV that has buit-in deinterlacer and scaler. Deinterlacing really makes sense for online distribution only.

      ThomasTyndan Wrote:

      Perhaps I should clarify, obviously you can make 1080p video out fo anything, but I meant at true resolution. In otherword, pixel for pixel, that there is no scaling involved.

      What I mean is does the 24F/30F LOOK good when it is rendered out at 1080p after whetever the deinterlacing it does happens.?

      You will lose resolution when you deinterlace native interlaced video. You will lose resolution if you deinterlace 24Pfs video either, but the trick is that you DO NOT deinterlace 24Pfs video because there is no need for it, the fields of a frame are not temporally shifted. Instead you need to reconstruct original frames using what is called "reverse pulldown" or "reverse telecine".
      If you do this, NO LOSS OF RESOLUTION WILL OCCUR. This is how progressive-scan players work: they recover progressive frames from movie DVDs, which are normally recorded in 24Pfs fashion.

      hidef1080 Wrote:

      So far no HDV is giving us 1920 x 1080. We get 1920 x 1080 with "magic" non square pixels

      What’s magic about non-square pixels? Please recall that regular NTSC DVDs are 720×480 regardless of image aspect rate, whether it is 4:3 or 16:9. Non-square pixels were around for ages. I personally first got acquainted with them on a CGA-equipped PC.


      Michael, Canon Elura User Pages

    • #182459
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      ThomasTyndan Wrote:

      Perhaps I should clarify, obviously you can make 1080p video out fo anything, but I meant at true resolution. In otherword, pixel for pixel, that there is no scaling involved.

      You will lose resolution when you deinterlace native interlaced video. You will lose resolution if you deinterlace 24Pfs video either, but the trick is that you DO NOT deinterlace 24Pfs video because there is no need for it…

      Michael, Canon Elura User Pages

      It’s gonna be pretty tough to find pixel-for-pixel 1920 x 1080 HD video acquisition. There are a few consumer camcorders that will do it today, JVC and Panasonic make them. But as a caveat, pixels aren’t everything! JVC’s HD-110 produces a much better picture, in my opinion, than the HD Everio. But the HD-110 records less pixels.

      Some of the best video uses "scaling". The HDV format has a horizontal pixel count of up to 1440, DVCPRO-HD has 1280, and XDCAM gathers 1440. Even the HDCAM format, which was used for Star Wars Episode 2, gathers 1440 pixels of the 1920 possible. All of these are "scaled" upwards to fill the picture. If you’re George Lucas, you can now use the HDCAM-SR format that will collect a full 1920 x 1080 picture. But then again, you could buy a modest home for the price of that camera πŸ˜‰

      Best,
      Andrew Burke

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