Videomaker – Learn video production and editing, camera reviews › Forums › General › Video and Film Discussion › Converted flicker
February 29, 2012 at 6:36 AM #44526
I have a Panasonic HDC-HS700. It allows 1050 50P recording and the output is as smooth as silk. but if I convert to mpeg 4 (or other formats as well) the output result is flickery.I would on,y convert the output for someone to play who could not access to play the mt2s files the camera puts out, or to fit a longer video to a DVD etc.
This is not the jumping caused by the PC flailing to keep up. It can play my camera’s files great. It seems to be a common (if not ubiquitous) result of conversion.
What I am talking about is a rapid (10 + per sec?) jittering, whenever there is movement across the FOV. This can be if an object moves across screen (the object jitters) or the object is panned with and the background moves across screen (the background jitters).
The effect amplifies with pan speed and I think area of movement. Area I am not sure about, as of course a large blurred area will hit the eye far worse.
This happens on different computes as well
I have tried different frame rates, bitrates, frame sizes, players, conversion programmes (by the dozen), codecs, and all have the same sorts of trouble. In Corel Video Studio 4 even its own player shows the problem. This also occurs trying to convert, say, recorded TV, but not always, and I think not always as badly.
Some TV shows that are broadcast are as bad, for me (Australia). I have had it said that the US does not have any of this, but I do not think it’s just PAL vs NTSC. It _may_ sometimes be a conversion thing from NTSC/PAL or VCVS. However my vidcam is set to PAL, and I work in PAL when given the choice.
I have seen it in cartoons as well. Here it is not the jerkiness of the cartoon frame rate, but almost as if the video sort of jumps back and forth between frames for a fraction of a second, thus causing jittering.
So…..is this just a fact of life with conversion?
February 29, 2012 at 2:02 PM #186465
Nick, No not a fact of life. Long ago I had similar issues, but can’t recall what I did to fix it.
A few questions if I may?
1) You mentioned several computers that you tried, how many and were they all yours?
2) If YES to the above question what codecs were installed on the computer (I remember what my problem was just from asking the second question.)
A few years back I had several computers, and I was a standard install type guy, all computers got all the same apps. Even though I used VSX4 I would still go and install several 3rd party codec packs. At the time I thought I needed all the codecs I could get. Anyway I was having the jumping, stuttering, issues. In fact I may have even posted the issues here back in 2010’s sometime. I think someone here mentioned all the codec packs I had installed. So I reinstalled my Operating System and just installed VSX4, ran the updates and tried a conversion, and it came out clean.
Some of the codec packs I had conflict with….
QMC (Quick Media Converter) A great program, but a codec conflict program.
There were two others but so long ago I can’t remember. I quit using CCCP and the other two completely, But I still use QMC, However I install all my programs first, even VLC. Then I install QMC, when it ask if I want to update or install a codec I know I have I say no.
I do agree, I do not think it is directly PAL related, but I do think it is a codec issue. When you installed Corel VSX4 and the first or second question was about PAL or NTSC do you remember your choice? Almost all those type applications are defaulted to NTSC when I download and install. Do you think you may have overlooked that step while installing and left it at NTSC? Trying to convert PAL on an application set for NTSC will cause that, I did it once just to see what would happen.
Also if you watch region 1 DVD’s on your computer, then maybe watch a region 2, and another region 1….a computer will only switch regions 5 times (XP and Vista I have not looked into W7) so if the system is left to region 1 that may (I am not sure) cause issues.
But I think it is a conflict with either PAL/NTSC or codec’s, you would need to reinstall the OS from scratch and then each application and ensure PAL is the chosen setting on everything, even those conversion programs that we download are defaulted to NTSC.
February 29, 2012 at 11:10 PM #186466
Thanks for the reply (even though it’s a bit depressing to think of reinstalling everything).
Computers…I have had this happen on several computers over time, from laptops to PCs with powerful video cards, and definitely not all with the same programmes. However, there could be a codec issue and that’s for sure. I have no idea what codecs I have loaded! Each programme brings or uses its own and as far as I can see they either place them in a “pool” or in their own folders. I am not sure they all unload them at uninstall.
The one thing is, this is not jumping or stuttering, although I have had that from time to time. It is a constant, rapid flickering of everything that is required to be refreshed on screen. It looks almost more like a blurring, but there is a definite ….um…..granularity to it, but not like grains as much a a “lininess” across the direction of movement. It shudders, not stutters
As I say I see it often on commercial TV, but not always.
Anyhoo….I will check up how I have CSX4 set up, a the very least
March 1, 2012 at 12:37 AM #186467
It really may be an issue with PAL to NTSC. Like I mentioned almost all programs default to NTSC. Question. Could you not leave your video recorder in NTSC and install everything on the computer in NTSC? The thing about burning your own DVD’s, regardless of the video camera or software settings, a “region” is not burned to the DVD. Even if you software is set to NTSC and you burn a DVD, a region is NOT on the DVD, NTSC or PAL is not a file structure and I use NTSC and have burned DVD’s and shipped them to Germany and Japan (Japan is in Region 1 Germany Region 2) they all played no problems. And even if you do record in NTSC and edit in NTSC, you can convert to PAL and burn in PAL if that were a problem. But is sounds like to me PAL is the problem, I guess PAL is not so much a “Pal” after all. (Pun intended)
March 1, 2012 at 1:29 AM #186468
OK I will look at going all NTSC, just to see if it helps. I realise that “regions” are just a marketing ploy and have nothing to do with the format. Also yes, NTSC and PAL are AFAIK just frame rates and sizes.
I have read on the Corel forum, though, that VStudio is not good at converting from one to the other and was not designed to. I do not know of any reasonably-priced programmes that are capable of doing a really good job.It may be that I am accidentally doing this….
Anyway as I say I will see about working entirely in NTSC.
Thanks for the input. Much appreciated again.
March 1, 2012 at 2:52 AM #186469cfxcorpParticipant
Take a look at HandBrake. It was suggested by another videographer on another thread and it may be useful to you. It is a free program.
March 1, 2012 at 3:59 AM #186470
OK. Bit busy right now. I have HB and tried it….can’t remember the outcome, but it did not get something right.
When a bit more time I will have another look and get back.
March 1, 2012 at 7:48 AM #186471
@TASANA STUDIOS I can’t go NTSC. AFAICS the camera is PAL, because of where it was sold 🙁
@cfxcorp The main trouble with HB is that it is not an editor, and has no pretensions that way. If used to put out 50fps (or use the camera’s) and with high bit rates, it gives a beautiful result. But if I then take that result to any editor I have tried, I cannot repeat it at all. HB at 25fps is still juddery.
Speedbit’s right-click converter also just follows the camera’s output and gives a great result, but there is no way to set any parameters, and again it’s not an editor.
However the fact that I can play videos on my machine, both mts and converted mpeg and see really good results tells me that there is something wrong, and it seems to be in the conversion, not me or my machines.
March 1, 2012 at 8:50 AM #186472
Ok I have uploaded a sample to photobucket.
[video src="http://s354.photobucket.com/albums/r414/OldNickToo/?action=view¤t=320200avihiqcomp25fps.mp4" /]
It’s 320*200 and fairly small for that (I have a 35KB/s upload), but I would like somebody to have a look and say if they think it’s OK for smoothness.
I would really appreciate anyone;s ideas.
March 1, 2012 at 12:44 PM #186473
Hi; I watched it and it is a good example of what you are talking about. The first thought I had was buffering. When you press and hold any key on your keyboard the signal is sent to a buffer or holding state. It is so quick we never see or notice a delay. But if you hold the key down, you are now sending more signal’s then the buffer can cache. So you hear a BEEP. When I saw your video the was my first thought. It seems as if you are having buffer errors.
But I also remembered you mentioned that you tried on several computers. So having the same buffer error on several computers would be odd. Do you mind listing the OS’s and memory and video specs of the computers you tried.
I know it is frustrating to endure this and not get answers right away, and I have been where you currently are, having an unknown video issue and can’t find the answer. But I am as determined as you to find the answer, I am very curious.
March 1, 2012 at 11:21 PM #186474
Well I hope it can be worked out and I would be really grateful
hmmm…that’s a tough call, but I have used XP 32 Win 7 32. I am currently on a laptop that has DUAL CORE 2.3ghz CPU and 2GB of RAM. The other PC I have been working on is pretty much the same actually, but with a quad core I7 processor. with WD 7200 SATA drives. I have had similar problems on older machines, but not that much older.
The laptop video card is pretty basic. It does struggle to play full screen avis for instance, especially of larger frame size and lower compression. However that results in irregular jumps and pauses, along with sound dropout, not the thing I posted.
Since you can see what I can see when you play my video I guess the buffering happens at creation time. It must have something to do with frame rate conversion, then, because I have two programmes that simply follow the frame rate of the source (speedbit’s converter and handbrake) , and they both make for really clean mpegs. If I force handbrake to have a fixed frame rate it still makes it clean, as long as I do not drop to 25 FPS. If I ask for 25 frames per second, that programme’s output again starts to give trouble.
If I ask VideoStudio to give me 50fps I still get flicker. I have yet to get a clean output from VS.
March 2, 2012 at 12:51 AM #186475
Just tried Adobe Premiere Elements trial. Same thing. Follow frame rate of source, perfect. Try 25 fps, flicker. So it’s not the programmes.
Now I have to either fix this (maybe it IS pal!) or get Video Studio to follow frame rates….or buy another editor.
I watch Aust produced stuff on TV that is silk-smooth. I am assuming that it’s PAL. Maybe it’s at 50fps. Then other stuff is (to me…my wife says that unless I point it out she can’t notice it) shocking.
March 3, 2012 at 12:35 AM #186476
Latest thing. I used Panasonic’s HD Writer to create a DVD and it’s smooth as silk.
There is a way to do this, then. Pity HD Writer is a basically useless editor.
Made a DVD with VS and it flickers.
I was asking elsewhere and mention was made of Frame based, Upper First and Lower First, with the described symptoms being mine to a t. But I tried all of those….:(
March 3, 2012 at 3:05 AM #186477
Well…I have “fixed” it. I do not get flicker if I use ffmpeg as the codec and allow Source frame rate.
now all I have to do is find a reliable editor that uses ffmpeg and allows source frame rate…..
March 29, 2012 at 6:15 AM #186478AnonymousInactive
I’m not certain if this will help or not, but you could try installing AviSynth on your PC (it’s freeware, and there are tons of examples for scripts online for it).
AviSynth is a Frame Server for video which is extremely powerful in itself, but when it’s tied in with other plugins for it (also freeware) it can do so much more!
Write a simple AVS script in notepad or another text editor that would look something like this:
Give the file a name like “MyMovie.avs” using the AVS extension.
Then see if you can load the AVS file into your editor and go from there. I haven’t tried it in a while, but I believe that this worked fine in Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 11 when I tried it.
April 2, 2012 at 12:28 AM #186479
Thanks for the reply.
I am not sure what I would be trying to achieve. in my trials I did actually get involved with AVISynth, through another programme that linked with it.
Actually I have moved on from here. That may explain my confusion. As I have posted recently, I now can get good stuff from Vegas. I am now just puzzled about why some format do this and some do that: some things give one problem and others, when set the same way, will not.
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