Camera Choice

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    • #42526
      ralck
      Participant

      Personally, I use the manual focus controls all the time. It’s always good to have these, because you can get more artistic effects when you have full manual control of your camera.

      Going back to cars, it’s like a stick shift vs. an automatic. The automatic thinks for you, and sometimes makes mistakes, like going into overdrive when you don’t want it to. The manual on the other hand only does what you want it to πŸ˜‰

    • #178560
      ralck
      Participant

      Hello! First post on your forum (sorry for the first being a question)!

      I hope this isn’t a toughy for you, but here is my situation: I am a film student and I would like to buy a camera to do some independant work with. Currently I am looking at the Sony VX2100, Canon GL-2, and Panasonic AG-DVC30. The reason I am looking at these cameras is because I want manual controls on my camera, most importantly manual focus, manual color balance/white balance, shutter speed, audio controls (these are least important, but would be nice to have). I also like the zoom ring on the Sony model, but this is not necessary either, just a luxury at this point. One thing, that’s not really a feature, but is for my peace of mind, is a waranty, preferably 2 years at least (which basically means I’d have to buy new).

      Here’s the catch. My budget is only about $1500USD, and could stretch to 1600 if I really needed to (but I’d rather save that extra 100 for another battery). This puts all three of these cameras out of my price range. I have seen several sites that claim they sell the camera for only 1200 or so, but checking on reseller ratings and such, they turn out to be scams (the old too-good-to-be-true thing!). I’m also a little uneasy about ebay and other auction sites because these cameras won’t come with a waranty and could be broken to begin with.

      So, my questions to you are: which camera of the three I listed do you think is the best? Are there any reputable sites that might offer a cheaper price than B&H?
      Are there any other cameras out there that could offer those manual features I listed but for a cheaper price? I am willing to sacrifice 3 CCD and drop down to 1 CCD as I probably don’t need quite that high image quality to ‘start’ (I use start loosely, as I have helped out on other people’s projects for a while, just nothing of my own), but I feel for the kinds of projects I want to do, the manual settings are a must (indie films, maybe help film my college’s hockey games, some documentary-style work).

      I see that Canon has listed a $150 rebate, this could be the camera I go with if anyone knows a good site that sells it for 1750 or cheaper.

      One last thing to mention, I’d like to try and stick with the smaller, non-shoulder mount cameras if possible, since dorm rooms are small and I have tried shoulder mounted ones and don’t like them all that much (plan to use with a tripod often anyway).

      Thank you for any suggestions and sorry for the long post!

    • #178561
      ralck
      Participant

      Thank you for your reply! (I’ve been reading around, and it seems that you, compusolver, are one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum, so thank you for taking the time!)

      A few more things to add: I plan to use this for Indie films… being things I write at school; not very ‘complex’ (as in, 1 camera is enough to film these), possibly do film work around my home town, and also I’ll be lending it to my dad so he can film my two two-year-old nephews at times like Christmas and such (If I don’t to it myself!).

      I know waiting is the best option, as soon so many cameras will be direct harddrive ones, which may drop the price of these cameras, but I just can’t see waiting past the end of the summer. My best time to do film work is at school, so I’d really like to try and get a camera by the end of August or Early September at the latest.

      I feel my dorm room is secure enough. Both myself, and my roommate, who I fully trust (we are second year students), make sure the room is locked when we leave, and take extra measures to watch it if we are around (Our room is 1 door down from the lounge, making it a bit easier to watch the room). Another thing: The dorms are locked to anyone not living in them (I know people can get in, but it’s hard), and I have had experience with Campus Safety (I was not the troublemaker!) and they are very good about things like this.
      But that being said, I’ll look into possibly getting insurance (I have a laptop and a desktop computer that could use insurance to probably, as I got them last year!) or maybe these items can be added to my parents insurance and reduce the insurance I would have to pay (chip in on theirs kind of thing).

      My father has a fairly old Hi-8 camera which doesn’t really have any manual settings, and I would use this if it weren’t for the 3 minute battery (30 seconds if you zoom), and that it only takes NiCd batteries (not worth buying at 200 a pop). This could be a great starting camera for the price (free basically!), if it weren’t for the battery problem, and I can not, obviously, have it plugged into the wall outside (not sure if it even can do that).

      Part of why my father is supportive of this endeavour I want to take is that he very much likes the idea of having a quality camera to film my nephews, so maybe I can ask him to chip in 400 or so to get a camera and pay him back over the year?

      But I am still open to other camera ideas, if they are cheaper. I know the cameras I listed are on the very high end of the consumer market, basically prosumer, and that I probably don’t need something quite that good quality to start, but I just have trouble finding cameras with the manual settings I want in my price range!

      One last thing… I found this site that has a great price, but the problem that makes me very weary is that they are not even listed on resellerrattings (as I always check there before even thinking about buying from an online site). I’m about 95% sure they are a scam just by the price they list, but they do say it comes with everything it’s supposed to. Does anyone know if they are truely a scam? My guess is that it may be the full camera package (or they could lie on their site), but it’s gray market so no waranty (the waranty they list is probably through them and doesn’t really cover anything?). But I just can’t find any good/bad things about them on google or resellerratings (since nothing found that’s good, probably means bad!).
      http://www.bnsexpress.com/proddetail.php?prod=05908

      Thank you again, and even if there are cameras lacking in some features, if they are in my price range, can you list them anyway so I can atleast look into them and consider them?

      Thank you so much again!

    • #178562
      ralck
      Participant

      Can anyone suggest a camera that may not have all the settings I want, but is cheaper? Please at least manual focus though. Or do any of you have a camera you would like to sell used (this is probably the wrong section, so could you direct me to the correct section)?
      I was talking to my dad about all of this, and he wants to try to communicate with one of these scam sites through email and phone (recording the phone calls, and yes letting them know), and seeing if they would lie about things like certified distributor (so not gray items), and make sure it comes with all things in the box, and is new, etc, etc. He thinks if they give the answers we want to hear about this, and we don’t get what we are supposed to, then we sue or something to get our money back? Unfortunately, I think he is mezmorized by these extremely low prices, and I can’t seem to convince him it’s worth putting a few more hundred in and knowing what we will be getting.

      On the off chance that my dad is willing to lend me an extra 400 dollars, what do you think of this deal on B&H? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=332722&is=REG&addedTroughType=search
      Is that a good XLR adapter? I’ve mainly looked at Beachtek, but this is intreging, especially since this camera really should have an external mic.
      I read that this camera is a bit better than the GL2 (in low light at least), but of course, still isn’t as good as the VX2100. Would this be okay for indie films do you think?

      Okay, so I know that if you knew these kinds of things, you’d be playing the stock market and be billionairs, but does anyone know if Panasonic does rebates on their cameras, and if so, how often do they usually seem to put them out (like, does anyone think there will be another rebate by the end of the summer?). I was thinking, my best bet might be to look at the Panny DVC30 listed by it self on B&H for ~1800, and wait for a rebate to get another 150-200 off, bringing it about down to my price range. Or do they usually not give a rebate towards the end of the summer like this?

      Thanks again, and sorry I’m asking so many questions you can’t answer easily (I know I sound like a n00b, but I assure you, I know what to do behind the camera, just can’t decide on a camera!)!

    • #178563
      ralck
      Participant

      *Bump*

      Any other suggestions?

      I’ve been looking through Video Maker’s chart, but I’m not sure I really see anything cheaper that doesn’t drop quality way down.

    • #178564
      tpainter
      Participant

      I have a dvc30 and love it. Sad to say, but they dvc30 had a rebate on it for the longest time that just ended. I am not sure when it may come back.

      The xlr adapter is highly recommended if you can swing it, but you could get by with a good mic with an 1/8 jack.

      If you want to do some indie movies, then the dvc30 would be a great choice. It has some scene file settings to achieve more of that "film" look.

      Follow everyones advice and do not attempt to try to get anything through those shady dealers.

      Now, panasonic is also releasing the DVC20, which is a 3CCD camera, and a little lower chip size than the 30. It is intended for the teacher/student environment. I think it looks like the AG-DVC7/DVC60 camera (shoulder mount and not a hand held) from the last I heard. I just saw that B&H is accepting orders and is listed at 1399. I can’t find any specs on it on the panasonic site.

    • #178559
      ralck
      Participant

      Hey, so I was wondering what people thought of this:
      There was a vx2000 listed on ebay that was essentially brand new, I had the ability to check it out to make sure it worked. Seller said it was used 4-6 hours max, and that it never had any problems with lens/dropped/precipitated on, etc. It came with an extra small battery, and an extra large (9hr) battery. I talked to my dad about it, and we agreed that 1400 max (including shipping) would be our price to try and bid on it.
      But it ended up going for almost 1600! Am I pricing myself too low do you think, or was this a bit higher than you would expect this camera to go for?
      Right now I’m looking either for a vx2000 on ebay (carefully, so as I don’t get scammed), or looking to maybe pay a bit more than we want and get a Panny ag-dvc30 on B&H.
      My dad has stated that he doesn’t want to pay more than 1000-1200 for a camera, even though it is MY money, but I don’t think he really understands these cameras are expensive!

    • #178558
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Hey ralck,

      If your father (or you) need something to chew on as far as why it’s worth it to spend more on a nicer camera, I like to liken cameras to used cars.

      When I was 16, I took the $400 I had in my pocket, and I bought a beat up 20 year old Plymouth. That car is featured in the photo under "beater" in the Encyclopedia. No power, the rear windows didn’t roll down, the interior didn’t match, no air, and it had a tendency to overheat. But it was transportation. It got me from point A to point B.

      Now, fast forward several years into the future. Today, I have a very nice Buick with air, power windows, leather interior, and except for making a little noise from my alternator, it doesn’t give me any problems.

      Now, why am I no longer driving my old Plymouth? Aside from the fact that it was an unsafe deathtrap, it still did the same basic function that my Buick does today. It got me where I was going. Ultimately, the reason I switched into a nicer car was because I wanted better reliability. I wanted more options. I wanted to stay cool when it’s 100 degrees outside.

      Like I said, cars are a lot like cameras. Any $500 camera will give you a basic picture, and if that’s all you want, you can live with it. But as soon as you actually want to take some control of your image and you want to see everything in a clear, true-to-life format, that $500 camera will be sadly insufficient for your needs.

      If you want a good camera, you’ll be very hard pressed to find one under $1,400. I’d probably sell my GL-1 for that price if it were for sale, but that camera isn’t state of the art (though the lens and CCD board are identical to that of the newer GL-2). The other problem is finding someone who would sell their camera. For example, if I sold off my GL-1, I’d need to buy a VX-2100 or a GL-2 to make sure I’ve got enough cameras to run my business, which means spending $600+ on my part. In the spring, when I’m turning down 5 weddings a month because I’m booked, I’d do that without batting an eye, but with the slowest August I’ve ever seen in this business (so far – It’ll still probably fill up), I’m not going to be as easygoing with my pocketbook. And the same goes for most others in my area who, like me, aren’t seeing the weddings that we saw last year this time.

      Save your money and get a good camera. Or settle for less and suffer through it. Personally, I’d wait if I were in your shoes.

    • #178557
      ralck
      Participant

      Thanks guys! It’s good to know that I’m not trying to be too cheap, but just get a good deal! I’ll keep looking around; there are a few more cameras on Ebay that I’m watching (still a few days away from the end, so anything could happen with them). That AG-DVC30 on B&H for 1800 is starting to look like a better option, though, as it’s new and not much more expensive than half these cameras on Ebay are being sold for!

      As far as my situation, I’m 19, and it’s my dad’s credit card, though I’m the one paying the bill in the end. I think it’s more along the lines of that he doesn’t want me to go overboard spending more money than I have (which I’ve already looked at my financial situation many times, and I know I can still pay for college after buying a camera this expensive!). I understand where he comes from: we are not a rich family by any sorts, so we always try to get the best deal possible. I’ve looked at my financial aid situation today again, and I may have actually under estimated how much I will be making this summer. If I work right up until the end of summer, I think I will be making close to 4500-5000 instead of 3500-4000 like I originally thought. That could certainly make it easier to afford a camera!

      One last question I have for you guys: I’ve only done film work on my parent’s high-8 camera (lower-end consumer quality) and a friend’s high-8 camera (mid to high range consumer quality) and my parent’s old VHS recorder (um… I won’t even mention how crappy that one is!). None of those have a focus or zoom ring on them. So how often to you guys find yourself (for those of you with VX2000’s and 2100’s) using both at the same time? Like, that’s one of the main features I liked on the Sony cameras, which was why I was looking for a 2000 on ebay. Thinking about some of the scripts I have writen that I want to do, though, I’m not really sure it’s something I need just yet, but I don’t want to have to upgrade cameras in a year just to get that functionality.

      Thanks again, you guys are great!

    • #178565
      ralck
      Participant

      Good analogy On a Roll. That’s what I was thinking. The only thing about it is, I’m looking at either the vx2000 used or the ag-dvc30 new. With both I can get focus and zoom rings, but not at the same time with the dvc30. That’s sort of the difference between a lamborgini and a mercades to me… both are good, but the vx2000 is better… Just is it more ‘car’ than I can handle? πŸ™‚

    • #178566
      WCphotography
      Participant

      I hate to say it, my friend, but I disagree with your response here. Do you feel as though you are giving "wise" advice to this fellow, that is, advising him to basically "bust his bank" in order to purchase one material posession? Why not instead recommend a very usuable camera that does contain a good number of features that he might find useful, instead of recommending that he place even more of his income into a camera that will not "pay itself off". He is not a professional filmmaker, nor does he make a living from any sort of profession regarding the use of such an expensive camera. He’s a college student, yes? Not a wealthy individual I can assume; one must be able to take these factors into context…and possibly provide a bit better advice based upon this…hopefully? lol It’s not all or nothing…filmmaking (creative expression for that matter) does not require the most expensive equipment to creative interesting results – this is dependant upon the ability of the filmmaker. Mind you, this is all within my opinion, with utmost respect.

      compusolver Wrote:

      Your first post listed three excellent camcorders, but your budget wasn’t quite enough to reach them. I recommend you get an extra job or whatever and add to your budget, patiently waiting until you can afford one of your excellent choices.

      To go cheaper, puts you in the plentiful and confusing range of consumer camcorders – something most of our posters, who are mostly fairly experienced videographers, probably have little experience with.

    • #178567
      WCphotography
      Participant

      My friend, he is just that, a student studying film…not a professional cinematographer…or a videographer. He is learning; I still do not understand your motivation for suggesting he invest so much of his most likely hard earned money (when he might have loans to pay off in the future, books to buy, other fees related to college) on one piece of equipment. This is not very sound advice for someone who considers themself a professional, in my opinion. He is "safer" learning and honing his abilities as a filmmaker with a less expensive…less economically straining camera…especially if it is only his money he is investing into this.

      compusolver Wrote:

      I think 1600 is too high for a vx2000. 1600 – 1750 is OK for a vx2100, but not a 2000. I think you were right to not spend over 1600 for a 2000 – even that may be a bit high, in my opinion – I’d prefer $1200 – $1400.

      If you’re a serious video student, you’re going to have to spend $1600 (used) – $2500 (new) or more on a camera alone. Then you still have mics, tripods, etc., etc. – the list is non-ending. Obviously, you’ll be safer with a new camcorder.

      I don’t know your situation, your age, etc. But something doesn’t sound right about your dad limiting how much of "your" money you can spend. There comes a time when a guy has to move out from under dad’s roof and stand on his own. So long as your under his roof, diplomacy is your only option.

    • #178568
      WCphotography
      Participant

      My issue with this reply, my friend: you are comparing two very different issues with one another. Cars depreciate greatly…especially new cars…this is not a very sound analogy. If you suggest one should buy a beautiful new car right off the dealership…they can also expect to resell the car for a much lower price than they bought the car for, this is not a good investment for one’s income, is it? Not a very wise concept…to basically throw one’s money down the drain for the concept of purchasing something new…(new things have faulty components as well). One thing is true…if you do buy something used, buy a well made product…something that is known to have a good resale value…as well as a well made construction. For instance, if you can find a higher value camera with a great number of functions used, and you know without doubt that the camera has been treated well, then by all means, purchase it. Feel comfortable in knowing that you didn’t throw your hard earned money down the drain on a new camera that you could hardly afford, when you could find the same camera used…hundreds of dollars lower in price(from a reputable source).

      On a Roll Wrote:

      Hey ralck,

      If your father (or you) need something to chew on as far as why it’s worth it to spend more on a nicer camera, I like to liken cameras to used cars.

      When I was 16, I took the $400 I had in my pocket, and I bought a beat up 20 year old Plymouth. That car is featured in the photo under "beater" in the Encyclopedia. No power, the rear windows didn’t roll down, the interior didn’t match, no air, and it had a tendency to overheat. But it was transportation. It got me from point A to point B.

      Now, fast forward several years into the future. Today, I have a very nice Buick with air, power windows, leather interior, and except for making a little noise from my alternator, it doesn’t give me any problems.

      Now, why am I no longer driving my old Plymouth? Aside from the fact that it was an unsafe deathtrap, it still did the same basic function that my Buick does today. It got me where I was going. Ultimately, the reason I switched into a nicer car was because I wanted better reliability. I wanted more options. I wanted to stay cool when it’s 100 degrees outside.

      Like I said, cars are a lot like cameras. Any $500 camera will give you a basic picture, and if that’s all you want, you can live with it. But as soon as you actually want to take some control of your image and you want to see everything in a clear, true-to-life format, that $500 camera will be sadly insufficient for your needs.

      If you want a good camera, you’ll be very hard pressed to find one under $1,400. I’d probably sell my GL-1 for that price if it were for sale, but that camera isn’t state of the art (though the lens and CCD board are identical to that of the newer GL-2). The other problem is finding someone who would sell their camera. For example, if I sold off my GL-1, I’d need to buy a VX-2100 or a GL-2 to make sure I’ve got enough cameras to run my business, which means spending $600+ on my part. In the spring, when I’m turning down 5 weddings a month because I’m booked, I’d do that without batting an eye, but with the slowest August I’ve ever seen in this business (so far – It’ll still probably fill up), I’m not going to be as easygoing with my pocketbook. And the same goes for most others in my area who, like me, aren’t seeing the weddings that we saw last year this time.

      Save your money and get a good camera. Or settle for less and suffer through it. Personally, I’d wait if I were in your shoes.

    • #178569
      WCphotography
      Participant

      I believe, when he stated that he wanted to work on "indie films"…he meant just that…an independently produced film. This does not require the most expensive camera to achieve interesting results…especially if this is going to be his first short film (which I would definately advise him to start with, instead of a full feature). You must realize, he is new to filmmaking…he is not a veteran filmmaking looking to upgrade his equipment. Advising him to purchase the latest and the greatest before he has even written a screenplay…or even planned out any sort of film idea…let alone before he has had ample experience, is not very wise. If one has the ability to use post production (editing)…if one can become talented in such an area, a highly advanced camera is obviously less needed(when you can produce a more professional looking piece of work with editing). Thanks

      compusolver Wrote:

      While this post is growing whiskers (the student has undoubtedly already made his purchase by now), I’d like to thank the above poster (WCphotography) for his well-argued, but mis-guided post.

      Please note that the original poster wrote:

      I plan to use this for Indie films

      ..thus implying that his videos will be competing against many others that are produced with quite professional equipment.

      There is no way he’s going to compete on any where near equal footing with a cheap 1-chip camera. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d be confident in guessing that 1-chip camcorder videos do not win many indie festivals.

      Until you’ve used a consumer camcorder in a futile attempt to produce a professional video, you may not understand where I’m coming from, but it is cheaper to buy the proper gear the first time around, than to first purchase a camcorder that won’t do the job, then have to unload it and buy what you should have purchased in the first place.

      If I recall, you posted elsewhere, earlier today, asking about a sub-thousand dollar camcorder. You are a professional photographer who is looking to add video to your work. It is not likely that you, or your clients, will be satisfied with video shot on a $999 camcorder. It would be interesting to have you post back here, six months from now with your experience.

      Best of luck to you!

    • #178570
      WCphotography
      Participant

      Btw, I actually doubt he has made his purchase by this time, especially the purchase of such a camera we have been discussing. If he has made a purchase, hopefully it has not been the purchase of a completely brand new, top of the line camera (maybe even a slightly used high end camera would be more hopeful).

      compusolver Wrote:

      While this post is growing whiskers (the student has undoubtedly already made his purchase by now), I’d like to thank the above poster (WCphotography) for his well-argued, but mis-guided post.

      Please note that the original poster wrote:

      I plan to use this for Indie films

      ..thus implying that his videos will be competing against many others that are produced with quite professional equipment.

      There is no way he’s going to compete on any where near equal footing with a cheap 1-chip camera. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d be confident in guessing that 1-chip camcorder videos do not win many indie festivals.

      Until you’ve used a consumer camcorder in a futile attempt to produce a professional video, you may not understand where I’m coming from, but it is cheaper to buy the proper gear the first time around, than to first purchase a camcorder that won’t do the job, then have to unload it and buy what you should have purchased in the first place.

      If I recall, you posted elsewhere, earlier today, asking about a sub-thousand dollar camcorder. You are a professional photographer who is looking to add video to your work. It is not likely that you, or your clients, will be satisfied with video shot on a $999 camcorder. It would be interesting to have you post back here, six months from now with your experience.

      Best of luck to you!

    • #178571
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Hi WC.

      I noticed that you referred to the camcorders Hank and I listed as expensive and high end. I know you’re just coming into video production, so maybe you haven’t researched the market as long as I have, or maybe you know something I don’t, but my perspective is that those aren’t "expensive" cameras.

      Honestly, for any sort of film-making, even if your immediate friends and family will be your only captives, or rather, audience ( πŸ™‚ ), a $1700 camera is the bottom of the tolerance zone for decent quality.

      As I mentioned in a response to something you said elsewhere, there’s a lot of technology that has to get crammed into a camcorder. For the technology that works, allows manual adjustment, and gives you broadcast quality, you simply can’t expect to find what you’re looking for below about a $1500 range. Less than that, and the camera quality goes noticeably down hill.

      Additionally, indie filmmakers usually show their films at film festivals, on near-theatre sized screens. A camera with any less quality than the near-$2000 range will look like crap on a big screen, plain and simple. Honestly, I’d almost suggest that filmmakers spend twice as much and go High Def.

      Look around some pro video camera sites. You’ll soon discover that an "average" pro video camera can cost $10-20k or more. I’ve seen cameras that went for almost a quarter million dollars. That’s what the big shot pros use. Those cameras are the high quality expensive ones. The $2000 price range is the minimum, borderline crappy end of the "pro" series. It’s really the least you can spend and still call yourself a pro.

      So yes, I would still suggest that someone who’s just getting into film-making start on a $2000 camera. Doing so, and learning the basics of a simpler, cheaper camera like these ones Hank and I have suggested, are a starting point. If he gets better at his art, he’ll no doubt eventually start spending $10,000 or more on cameras. Such is the life of independent filmmakers.

      Having owned several $500-$1000 cameras as well as several $2000-ish models, I could honestly say I’d be embarrassed to use anything less than my $2k cameras in a pro setting.

    • #178572
      TomScratch
      Participant

      Hi,

      Im feeling contrarian tonight.

      I know many have had bad experiences with ebay. Not me, Im one hundred percent satisfied. Im one for one! I had my second backup cam stolen and went on ebay to get it replaced, a Sony Digital 8, DCR-TRV520. My opinion is (and there may be a consensus on this) that this is the best D8 cam Sony made and just a really good cam period. (To this day, this is the one I carry in my backpack waiting for something newsy to happen near me but not on me or to me.) After the 520, Sony started going full bore with the SD digital cams but continued to put out new D8 models, each new one more inferior to the last new one.

      When I was bidding on ebay for this several months ago, there were typically 2-4 of this model on the entirety of ebay (i.e., hardly any). At this moment, there is just one, for about another 15 hours, current bid just over $100, location Orlando. If everything in the photo is part of the deal (battery, bag, charger, tripod plate (!!!)), this would be a good deal at $250 to 300, which is where the bids end up for a lot of this model (original price $800 to 1000). Of course of course, caveat emptor my friend. (But if you can bring it home for $150 )

      I think there are very few of these on the used market because owners are hanging on to them. You can learn the ropes with this cam (Manual Controls!), get it dirty, get it wet, and later when making your docs, have some one shoot you with the D8 cam while you are interviewing Angelina Jolie with your Sony VX2100.

      Whatever you get, also get a safe or a tough metal box, and a chain for attaching to your radiator (some dorms still have these). Everyone will know you have a cool cam because you will be out there using it. (If a Sony VX2100, you will getting a lot of attention.) Someone you might not even know will be thinking about doing a magic trick with it. Thats just human nature. (Does your dorm have maid service when you are not there; do they leave the door open for that?)

      Best of Luck

      REGARDS TOM 8)
      All right now, everybody pile on. 😯 :'( πŸ˜€ }:-)

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