A difficult decision…which NLE

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    • #43036
      Luis Oscar MaymiLuis Oscar Maymi
      Participant

      Hello people of Videomaker

      I have this terrible confusion to which NLE should I used for my future projects. At this moment I use Sony Vegas Pro 8, I know it from top to bottom and I really like it a lot. But as good as Vegas is I feel that I need to move on to another NLE…but which one? From the most popular NLE that I have read or heard: There is Vegas Pro, Premiere, Final Cut and Avid. As a Vegas user I wonder, what difference does the other NLE have that I cannot do in Vegas? Of course Avid is the beast of editors but what difference would it make if I have knowledge using Premiere, Vegas and Final Cut? I consider this; I will be editing video with many people and not everyone will have Avid (or a Computer powerful enough to handle it) but there is a possibility that they will have one of the other NLE and if I know how to use them all I will have advantage. (Of course I will have a preferred NLE) Another thing that make me write this topic is regarding to Avid. I was looking over it and is really awesome, powerful and all, but when I get to look at the price I almost die ($2495.00 is a lot of money) I keep searching and I found out about the academic price $295.00 and since I’m a student, I apply and now I’m awfully confuse, what should I do? On the other hand I will also buy the Adobe Master Collection and a Apple MacPro. Its a lot of stuff I know. Its because I’m starting a business about video and graphics designs and I’m looking for the best things. At this moment I’m looking for information, learning at much as I can on how to use camcorders, improving my editing skills and learning how to use other programs. Since in video you need high reputation I consider that my clients will judge me by the NLE I used, the camcorder and of course the quality of my project (which will be near perfection) This is all in the long run and we are preparing a plan of action (where and how to invest, etc) So, back to the original question, which NLE should I use?

    • #180230
      Avatarbirdcat
      Participant

      I loves me my Vegas! I have looked at others but none have the ease of use to powerful features ratio that Vegas has. Many professional editors use Vegas as their second NLE because it’s just so quick and easy to do things.

      I considered Avid’s Media Composer and Adobe Premiere Pro but for the money I just couldn’t see a good reason to move.

    • #180231
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      I think I am the only premiere user on these forums, ha ha. I used to use vegas, and to be honest I think it’s a great program. The thing that draws me to Adobe is the things that you can do with after effects and some of the other programs that can be used with it.

      I got started with Adobe back in college and I think that has a lot to do with why I still love it.

      Bottom line, everyone has the stuff that they love and the stuff that they hate, if you can grab some stock footage of some old project of yours and throw it through some free trials, you could easily find which program you like the best.

    • #180232
      AvatarXTR-91
      Participant

      If you have a Mac, I’d recommend Final Cut Pro. It appears to be the most expensive, but seems to provide the most features, effects, and productivity than the others (having little experience with only Final Cut Pro).

    • #180233
      Avatarcomposite1
      Member

      Sarge,

      Potential clients will judge you on the quality of your work, how efficiently you get it done and how well you stay within budget. Realistically, there are potential clients who will judge you on whether you have pro gear or not and rightfully so if you’re charging in excess of $1k per minute of video per project or more. It does help to mention names industry people are familiar with (Avid, FCP, Premiere, Vegas, Media 100, Grass Valley, etc.) On occasion you’ll get individuals who may be turned off by the workflow you’ve chosen because they don’t see how your’s may be compatible with theirs. However, you cannot and should not base your intended workflow on client expectations. You’ll have to establish a work pipleline that best suits your skills, talent and budget. I’ve worked with an ever-changing pipleline that has included multiple brands of cameras, OS’s and NLE’s. Though I love Avid, they’ve currently priced themselves out of my reach for the moment. So, since ’07 my outfit has been using Vegas and since I’m a longtime fan of Forge and Acid the switch was seamless. However, we’re also back to using Premiere since we’ve picked up the Master Collection. I’ve used many of Premiere’s earlier versions and this one’s not bad and I have used Phoshop, AFX and others for years so it’s a nice fit. Why would we have two different NLE’s in the same shop? Why not? The do similar things but the workflows are different. I happen to think the finishing process for VFX and Mographics with Adobe is far superior to many other workflows. But, the finishing process for scoring and audio post for Sony is second only to Protools and for the money blows everything else out of the water.

      You’re saying you balked at $2.5k for Avid but you’re getting the Master Collection ($2.5k) and a Mac Pro ($2.5k +)? If you’re going with a mac setup, what about FCS 2 ($1.3k)? Also, if you’re transitioning from PC to Mac do yourself a favor and make sure your old system is in good condition so you can keep producing product while you’re adjusting to the learning curve of a different OS and a massive new software suite. We’ve had MC for almost a year now and I’m just putting a dent into it despite having used an number of the programs included since they’ve come out!

    • #180234
      Luis Oscar MaymiLuis Oscar Maymi
      Participant

      “if you’re transitioning from PC to Mac do yourself a favor and make
      sure your old system is in good condition so you can keep producing
      product while you’re adjusting to the learning curve of a different OS
      and a massive new software suite”

      About using my old system, I though about using it only for Vegas and some other programs (Microsoft Office, Internet,etc) and I don’t want to eliminated Vegas of my life just because of the OS. I will be transitioning from PC to Mac pretty soon, but Vegas does
      not work on a Mac. I heard that you can use Windows on a Mac, will
      Vegas run without any problems?

    • #180235
      Luis Oscar MaymiLuis Oscar Maymi
      Participant

      “The thing that draws me to Adobe is the things that you can do with
      after effects and some of the other programs that can be used with it.”

      It its true that you can use some of the Adobe programs like if it where one? Something like importing some finish product from After Effects to Premiere or from Photoshop to After Effect as a project file of the program and without the need of rendering the video or image? (If this isnt true, I have no idea where I heard it)

    • #180236
      Avatarcomposite1
      Member

      “I will be transitioning from PC to Mac pretty soon, but Vegas does
      not work on a Mac. I heard that you can use Windows on a Mac, will
      Vegas run without any problems?”

      Sarge,

      I lament at your succumbing to the ‘infidelic’ influence of the ‘Evil Mac Hegemony’. We will ring the bells at sunset at your loss.

      All kidding aside, yes you can still run windows aps on a ‘Bootcamp’ partitioned Mac. My fully immersed crossplatform collegues say it’s buggy, but it works. However, I don’t see the value of using a dual OS unit no matter what platform. You’re going to have your hands full with all the mac software you’ll need and relearning short cut keystrokes and wait until you go through the dragging files from a disk to the desktop and the rude awakening that they didn’t do a 1-1 copy, that’s always fun. Or my favorite, if you lose or accidentally delete a file, it’s gone baby gone. There won’t be any of that silly going into MS-DOS prompt to find it either. Your thought about keeping Vegas on your old system is a good idea. Despite, mac’s so-called ‘intuitive interface’ you’re going to have a few hair pulling sessions until you get the hang of the software. I work in the mac environment on occasion and it’s always a ‘fun’ time getting reaquainted with the overpriced fruit. However, it’s an experience I suggest all serious editors subject themselves to. Anyone so-called pro who can’t go from one system to another to do their work isn’t much of one.

      Yes, you can import projects up to a point from one another in Adobe CS3+. Adobe is trying hard to make their pipeline a one-stop-shop. They dropped the ball audio wise with Soundbooth. It’s a nice intermediate tool, but it can’t hold a candle on a windless night to Sound Forge or Acid.

    • #180237
      Avatarjerronsmith
      Participant

      “It its true that you can use some of the Adobe programs like if it
      where one? Something like importing some finish product from After
      Effects to Premiere or from Photoshop to After Effect as a project file
      of the program and without the need of rendering the video or image?
      (If this isnt true, I have no idea where I heard it)”

      Adobe has a system that they call Dynamic link. The goal is to create an interchange pipeline so that you can take content created in one of the programs in the suite and open it’s native file format in another. With Dynamic link you can create a project in Premiere Pro and import the unrendered Premiere file directly into after effects and place it inside an After Effects Comp. Premiere can import unrendered After Effects as well. Dynamic Link basically can be used to move project files between Premiere, Encore, After Effects and Soundbooth. Additionally, After Effects and Premiere both have the ability to import native Photoshop (PSD) and Illustrator (AI) files though this has been a function of the programs for a while and isn’t technically a part of the Dynamic Link feature. If you are using After Effects for motion graphics work you can create layered content in Photoshop and Illustrator and import the individual layers into AE as a composition. This allows you to animate/edit each layer individually, offering a wide range of possibilities for the creation of dynamic content.This interoperability and the time saving features it provides is one of the kay selling features of the Adobe Suite.

      I run a dual boot on my Macs using bootcamp and havent’ had a problem yet, tough I know of colleagues who prefer parallels. The one problem with Parellels is that is does not support using firewire devices as far as I know. Composite1, a good reason for a dual boot is that not all software is freely available on both the Mac and PC platforms so sometimes there may be no choice in the matter.

    • #180238
      Avatarcomposite1
      Member

      “Composite1, a good reason for a dual boot is that not all software is
      freely available on both the Mac and PC platforms so sometimes there
      may be no choice in the matter.”

      Jerron,

      To paraphrase the mac mantra, “Get a PC.”

      Yeah, I know. I hear that all the time. I personally find dual boots a PIA as issues like the one you mentioned about firewire and then some programs are optimized for a specific OS or CPU like Vegas. I don’t know anyone who would bother to put Vegas on a bootcamped mac. It’d be interesting to see if it worked though. Though you can run PC software on a partitioned mac (and now mac software on a partitioned pc. Bet old ‘Stevie’ wasn’t expecting that one) as an economical option, it defeats the strengths and weaknesses of both platforms. I personally believe it would be in everyone’s interest that software be crossplatform. I like the fact that no matter which I’m using, I can collaborate with others using the same software. Makes my job so much easier.

    • #180239
      Avatarjerronsmith
      Participant

      I think we should scrap them both and just all run Linux.

    • #180240
      Luis Oscar MaymiLuis Oscar Maymi
      Participant

      “I think we should scrap them both and just all run Linux.”

      JAJAJA you are right, but Linux is so unknown to the regular society that Linux should come up with some extreme propaganda, with a completly new OS (better than Mac and Windows) and make a huge lie telling that is completly “Virus Free” (That something I love about video, you can manipulate people minds with tons of craps, lies and people believe it. Does BUY STUFF commercial. Who BRILLIANT idea was that?) From the computers that I have seen that run Linux, they have some powerful programs for doing research (I love the meteorology programs, so powerful, so exciting)

      HEY, I cannot believe the Poll results so far. I thought that Final Cut will have been in first place at all times.

    • #180241
      Avatarjerronsmith
      Participant

      From what I have seen from this forum, there seem to fewer final cut users here than Vegas users most of the time.

    • #180242
      Avatarcomposite1
      Member

      Final Cut is an excellent program but unlike the other ‘majors’ only mac users ‘use’ it. Avid and Premiere being crossplatform have a much larger following among both industry pros, independent pros and amatuer users. Colleges, some government agencies and higher-end botiques are growing the numbers for FCP, but these posts seem to have far more of the ‘average joe-jane’ participating and most of them don’t have the cash to go full-bore with an all-mac setup with software and supporting gear. Vegas on the otherhand, can be put onto a reasonably adequate PC that many people already have. That’s a tough act to beat and Apple, Adobe and Avid better watch their backs. If Sony ever pulls their head out and make the Vegas Suite crossplatform, look out.

    • #180243
      Avatarjerronsmith
      Participant

      About which editor to buy:

      To preface this I am not unbiased, I have used both Final Cut Pro and Premiere Pro for many years and have never touched Vegas.

      If all you are gong to do is run your own business as an event videographer or independent producer it really doesn’t matter. Any non-consumer level NLE should work for you in that case. If you need to do more than edit footage however, if you plan to create graphics as well (either moving or static), if you plan on using digital distribution or publishing content to both a disk based format (SD or HD) and web based delivery, then you should probably go with the Adobe suite. The fact is that Adobe makes most of the major graphics/design programs on the market and has been an industry standard name for quite a while. The integration between Photoshop, Illustrator, AfterEffects, Premiere, Encore, Soundbooth and Flash is very well thought out, and it is that integration that is the major push in the latest release of the program.

      However if you are looking to work with/for an established production company or studio you will probably want to work with either Final Cut Pro or AVID. if you are looking at the highest end of the spectrum you should definately go with AVID. Pretty much all highend film, network television and highend cable uses AVID. A lot of independent film, and lower end TV and cable, advertising and institutional video productions use FCP. Premiere and Vegas aren’t even on the map in those industries as far as I know.

    • #180244
      Avatarcomposite1
      Member

      Jerron,

      You are quite correct with your assessment concerning the levels of industry NLE uses. However, Premiere and Vegas are starting to make their inroads. ‘Superman Returns’ offline edit was done with Premiere and the Discovery Channel’s ‘Survivorman’ is cut with Vegas (belive it or not Les Stroud switched from FCP.) Indy doc filmmaker’s are starting to use both to complete short and feature films and I have seen a growing number of narrative films at festivals cut with either. I believe both premiere and vegas are at the point FC was at vs Avid in 2002-03 when it came to what got cut on it. I’ve cut short form training films and a narrative short on Vegas and am working on an internet series with premiere. With the tech advances these days and how much less investment is needed, it’s much easier to cut and finish a production with excellent production values than say 5 years ago. As you know, it’s the online process where the ‘heavy lifting’ for finishing gets done. When both Adobe and Sony work out the online workflow for finishing we’ll see both programs cut deep into Avid’s and FCP’s market share.

      To see examples of the narrative short go to: http://www.dreadedenterprises.com/HOST

    • #180245
      Luis Oscar MaymiLuis Oscar Maymi
      Participant

      “If you need to do more than edit footage however, if you plan to create graphics as well (either moving or static), if you plan on using digital distribution or publishing content to both a disk based format (SD or HD) and web based delivery, then you should probably go with the Adobe suite”

      Practically almost all that we will do in our business will be web based delivery. But we are planing on doing Podcast, graphics desings and publishing DVD and possibly BluRay (whichcostumers have to pre-order a copy)Our video productions will be concetrated in just one area (College Students) and we will use does massive life consumers (Facebook, Myspace, Twitter) to have a huge propaganda and increase our audience potencially.Right now we have aWebPage that is under severe construction (changing from HTML to Flash) and is going to focus on our business specifications.We are definetly going with the Adobe suite and to make CGA (if its strongly needed) Blender will enterour lifes (this is one extremely difficult program but with two minds, hundrends of hours of tutorials and errors we will learn to use it)

      Composite1

      You are working on a internet series, do one need certain permissions to make a internet series? (even if its wacht from the owner web page)

    • #180246
      Avatarjerronsmith
      Participant

      >>Right now we have aWebPage that is under severe construction (changing
      from HTML to Flash) and is going to focus on our business
      specifications. <<

      Given your audience, many of them may be accessing your content on phones and other mobile devices most of which do not support flash, or only partially support it. A heavily flash based site may be a hindrance in a situation like yours.

    • #180247
      Avatarcomposite1
      Member

      “do one need certain permissions to make a internet series? (even if its wacht from the owner web page)”

      Sarge,

      You were ‘breaking up’ at the end there. If I caught your question right, when you develop your own original content you don’t have to permission to do so. When you incorporate previously copyrighted material (such as characters, specific buildings, etc.) and it’s not a parody, you’ll need to get the copyright holder’s permission to use it.

      Jerron,

      I’ve found deciding on which format to use is a tough one. As we are redeveloping our company website, the plan is a mix of html, css and flash video and or wmv or qt for longer high quality SD and HD clips. I’m not fond of all Flash sites, but flv is getting to be the most popular format.

    • #180248
      Avatarjerronsmith
      Participant

      Composite,

      While all modern browsers will support the flash player and the great majority of internet connected computers in the primary US and European markets have the player the use of flash either as a part of a site or for the entire site makes alot of sense.The advantage is that it is a single technology to address content, structure and interactivity, instead of having to rely on multiple ones as you must now with an HTML site.

      The problem is that the use of portable devices like iphones and blackberrys to access the internet is rapidly growing. Some expectations are that they will exceed computers as the main way for accessing internet based content. The major problem is that many of them don’t support using flash or only offer support via the browser which often only use older players. Were you planning on duplicating the video content in both WMV and Quicktime for mac and pc users?

    • #180249
      Luis Oscar MaymiLuis Oscar Maymi
      Participant

      Jerron

      I never came to my mind about providing my content on phone and other media devices. I really don’t know if this will be entirely successful or not since not everyone in our audience have access to portable devices. In order to do this I will need to make a Cost and Benefit analysis and several surveys to see how many people have access to it and how they will like to see our content. And yes, we are going to make it accessible mostly WMV for PC users (since almost everyone use Windows OS) but also in quicktime for does very few people that have Mac.

      A heavily flash based site may be a hindrance in a situation like yours.

      You are right and in order to view Flash web pages at its best, the internet speed must be fast. This is what my brother had told me (he deals with web and graphics designs. I deal with video productions and editing) and he considers the internet velocity that our audience will have, which is base with the one we have, that really sucks (We cant wait to upgrade our internet speed). There will be a link in the page for the video productions and other links for the rest of the business. He knows how to use HTML and Flash, how should he build the video segment of the page considering the internet speed of our audience? And if its possible to use the Adobe programs for live internet feed?

    • #180250
      Luis Oscar MaymiLuis Oscar Maymi
      Participant

      When you incorporate previously copyrighted material (such as
      characters, specific buildings, etc.) and it’s not a parody, you’ll
      need to get the copyright holder’s permission to use it.

      What do you mean that if its not a parody? That like does movies that make fun of the others (Meet the Spartans, Scary Movie, etc) So, if its possible to make a parody out of a copyright movie without dealing with legal implications or do one needs to let the owner of the copyright know about it?

    • #180251
      Avatardesigncbts
      Participant

      Back to your original question, I would recommend you consider AVID. I’m primarily a Premiere user. However, most studios seem to prefer the AVID platform…

    • #180252
      Avatarjerronsmith
      Participant

      >>I really don’t know if this will be entirely successful or not since
      not everyone in our audience have access to portable devices.<<

      You realize that more people in the world, not to mention your specific audience (college kids) have mobile phones than computers right? With a market that is as mobile as college kids what you will probably find is that a large chuck of them are going to be accessing info on the web via phones, blackberrys, etc.

      >>And yes, we are going to make it accessible mostly WMV for PC users
      (since almost everyone use Windows OS) but also in quicktime for does
      very few people that have Mac.<<

      I’m sorry but that might not be a very good idea given your stated audience. You realize that Macs are very popular with college kids right? Apple’s marketing targets them specifically and has make their laptops very popular on college campuses. I would seriously caution anyone against using WMV’s on the web to display video, the most common video format for online video distribution are FLVs. Since all it needs to play is the Flash player which most computers online already have, and the player is cross platform there is a much lower chance of your viewers not being able to see your content.

      >>He knows how to use HTML and Flash, how should he build the video
      segment of the page considering the internet speed of our audience?
      And if its possible to use the Adobe programs for live internet feed?<<

      To keep the size of Flash content down what most developers do is dynamically load external flash content into the main movie. This way the viewer doesn’t have to wait for the entire movie to load, only the parts they want. I don’t believe that the technologies in the suite will work for live internet video feed.

    • #180253
      Avatarcomposite1
      Member

      Jerron,

      Yes, we always make copies in .avi and .mov. The prospect of having to make all the content available for mobile devices (though annoying) is a necessary step. Personally I’m not fond of trying to view webpages on my phone, but I do regularly look at content on it. So, the inevitability of it all moving to the ‘tiny screen’ can be seen in the coming winds.

      Sarge,

      Yes. However, there still has to be enough ‘difference’ between what you do in the parody and the original work. For example; there is a big difference between doing a parody and a ‘fan based’ work. Parodies are protected as they were originally used to criticize government rule which is why it’s generally seen as okay that comedians make fun of public figures but not public figures making fun of other public figures. Fan based works are ‘what if I wrote the story’ type of stories like the popular ‘Star Trek’,’Harry Potter’ or ‘Lord of the Rings’ ones. The only things different about those stories are who wrote them and the actors used. Both parodies and fan based works are legal, but you can only get compensation for a parody without violating copyright. For example: SNL does parodies and they get paid to do them. When the Wayans Bros. created ‘Scary Movie’ they totally parodied ‘Scream’ and other popular horror films and got paid for it. If those guy making the fan based Star Trek films take a dime from advertising or merchandising, despite the original writing they’ve done they will be in violation of copyright.

      So, if you create your own material and copyright it the only permission you need is what you give. Now to be fair, this is totally off topic but the whole purpose of buying NLE gear, software, camera gear and asking bazillions of questions in these forums is to facilitate all of the stuff Jerron and I have mentioned.

    • #180254
      AvatarDaryl
      Participant

      Hey all just a quick note I read on the vegas fourm that the New Vegas 9 would be compatible with Avid, or at least that is how I remeber reading it might be worth taking a look I already pre ordered my V9

    • #180255
      Luis Oscar MaymiLuis Oscar Maymi
      Participant

      I totally went off topic but from your answer I now have more knowledge and a clear understanding of which NLE I should stick with. Jerron is right, the Adobe suite is definetly right for me and for my purpose. I have to thank Jerron for introducing the portable device dilema, it had become part of our business plan and is another excellent way to market our product and always have our audience happy. And thanks Composite1 for your excellent answers and patience. You clearly state that Vegas is an excellent NLE and I was a little bit upset with Vegas since in my Cinema class many people use Premiere and saying that Final Cut is great and all and me the only Vegas user remain strong with the fact that Vegas is awesome. In the end the one editing all the proyect is me and Premiere user are surprise at how easy and powerful Vegas is. Im really happy with Vegas.

    • #180256
      Luis Oscar MaymiLuis Oscar Maymi
      Participant

      Now I want to make a brief about what Vegas Pro 8 have and what I consider to be powerful and helpful features. (People that deals with Final Cut and Premiere, feel free to describe them briefly)

      Vegas Pro 8 was the third NLE that I deal with (1.Windows Movie Maker 2.Cyberlink Power Director 6) Some of the I love features are the no limit video and audio tracks (you can change the name of each one) , dual monitor (makes your life a lot easier), the track motion (with a 3D feature) and Pan and Crop tools. The one of the most helpful feature that Vegas has is the autosave project (many projects I haven’t completely lost because of this) Vegas is easy to use (after you spend hours with tutorials and a lot of practice) and gives you the advantage to create almost anything you want. The Color Correctors, Levels, Brightness and Contrast are some of the many powerful Video FX that can amazingly improve or fix your project. The chromakey is easy to deal with and can be make near perfect using other Video FX.Of course if you do not light right the greenscreen it would look bad, but even with that Vegas can manage to give you a good keying. While doing the Keying, color correction, etc, using the Video Scopes helps you fix more easily a video and gives you a complete idea of the light and colors of your video (this tool is extremely helpful) The multicam feature is great (it takes a little practice to dominate seeing many videos at the same time) and you can make a project draft just by pressing the Cam angle that you want, which are easily change by clicking in the clip in the video preview window or by pressing the number of the cam on the keyboard. Another good tool is the trimmer, easily making subclips and marking a place or region that you want in the project (which is seen in the timeline clip) By far the most amazing feature that I consider to be the best is the markers and regions. This amazing feature let you mark an specific frame or second of the clip and name it any way you want. You can also make a region of the clip and use it or move it any way you want around the timeline. I consider that Vegas have everything you need to edit video and have powerful tools to edit audio in the same timeline. You can even edit in 5.1 Surround and among so many features that Vegas have that will be way too long to describe in this forum. Check out this video to see more about Vegas Pro

      http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/video/video.asp?file=commercial/whyvegaspro&title=Why+Vegas+Pro%3F&VideoPref=

    • #180257
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      I know…but sometimes, Vegas Pro seems like a toy to me. The editor I really liked, Corel/Ulead Media Studio Pro,stopped production but is still available. It doesn’t work on Vista, was simple, and now has been discovered to work on Windows 7 much to the relief of it’s owners. Unfortunately,MSP had codecs and other things that weren’t deemed “professional”. Oddly, Video Studio, the entry level editor,is now the only editor made at Corel/Ulead.

      You canmostly download a demo of any editor you wish to try…I’ve tried most…seem to be about the same…except for the codecs used.

      Guess that’s why I’m sticking with Vegas Pro…it’s codecs and it matches my cam to boot. It also came with DVD A.

    • #180258
      Avatarcomposite1
      Member

      Sarge,

      I recently updated Vegas to 8.1 for 64-bit. It’s a touch buggy particularly when it comes to capturing. I’m eyeballing ver 9, but the upgrade price is much steeper than usual (ver 8 $99, ver 9 $200+.) We’ll see. As for the folks in your class, I’ve seen that ‘surprise’ in Editing courses too. Some folks gain mastery over one nle and are unable to see the advantages of others. As an independent, you will not have the luxury of a ‘one trick pony’. You’re going to have to develop your own workflow and it will be made up of many different types of software and gear. As an indy, your primary task is to get the work done and do so by the most efficient and economical means. Moving from platform to platform and nle to nle before you gain mastery of any one first will hinder you from that task.

      Zoobie,

      Hmm, I’ve never thought of Vegas as a ‘toy’ before. I guess because I had worked with Acid and SF for so long, the interface was familiar but strange initally doing video with it. My Editor and I got over the ‘newness’ quickly and found it to be a high-end tool which in intermediate to skilled hands could turn out an edit with some high production values. Vegas seriously needs to incorporate real-time fx rendering to make it a fully ‘pro’ tool. However, you are so right about it having good codecs. I recently cut a commercial on Premiere but was having a helluva time exporting it out to .avi and have it be compatible with WMP. Quicktimes came out just fine. Finally, I had to export an uncompressed .avi and compress it to WMV in Vegas. Which worked out great because it kept the file below 2MB and still managed to keep in good quality. Premiere doesn’t have the .WMV codec installed. If I didn’t have both programs I wouldn’t have been able to solve that problem to my standards.

    • #180259
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      composite1,perhaps if you install Windows Media Encoder,Premiere could usethat to compress the video. This is how Media Studio Pro works…worth a shot

      It’s hard to beat Vegas Pro’s codecs…but there are some stand-alone programs that seem to work well, too

    • #180260
      Avatarcomposite1
      Member

      Zoobie,

      Thanks for the heads up on WME. I’ll check it out. BTW, your’s and JediChick’s avatars are distractingly attractive.

    • #180261
      Luis Oscar MaymiLuis Oscar Maymi
      Participant

      Hello again Videomaker community

      Finally I transition to MAC OS and I can say that I’m extremely happy. I can run so many things at the same time and the OS rarely freezes. I wanted to mention that I install Windows XP on boothcamp and I also install Vegas Pro 8. You can actually use Vegas and its features, but sometimes Windows OS freezes when you import large project or something complicated. Its a little bit unstable, it does not work efficiently and yes you can get virus even on a boothcamp Windows (Avast Antivirus identified one Trojan) Another thing is that Windows XP only identified 3 GB of RAM out of 4 GB of my MAC (I read that XP can only use 3 GB RAM. I guess Windows Vista can use more than 4 GB) and the dual processor was identified too. Also, you can use a PC mouse (with the right click and the scroll) on the MAC without any problems. I only installed Windows for Vegas and Visual Communicator, but is for emergencies only. I’m currently learning to edit in Premiere and a friend told me that if I know how to use Premiere, Final Cut will be much easier to learn. Also, definitely MAC OS is a lot better than Windows OS for hardcore projects and editing.

    • #180262

      I just have a quick question regarding Media Composer v3.5. I purchased a Dell XPS M1530 Laptop recently, and was wondering if it would be able to run MC. It is a Vista Home Premium system, with a 32 bit operating system. It has an Intel Core2 Duo CPU T9300 both running at 2.50GHZ. I also got the academic version of it, and it loaded up without any difficulty. I just wanted to make sure my computer could actually handle it before I start importing video.

    • #180263
      Avatarbrokenjack
      Participant

      “Finally I transition to MAC OS and I can say that I’m extremely happy.”

      I’m glad to hear you switched to FCP. I am a professional editor who works on an Avid DS Nitris. I use FCP when I’m not using the Avid. I have never had my computer crash or freeze with FCP (of course now it will because I made the statement). Don’t waste your time learning Premiere if you know you are going to use FCP. That’s just ridiculous, and you should question your friendship with someone who told you to learn a program to get ready to use another. If you want to learn FCP, head over to lynda.com and check out the FCP tutorials by Larry Jordan. He’s great. A little dorky and buttoned up, but great. I don’t want to start a Mac vs. PC debate, but I have been in the video/film biz for 20 years, and after using Windows for much of that time, I have decided that Windows is crap. Yep, I said it. After switching to Mac in 2006, I actually get work done, and more creatively, I might add. Being an editor, or any other artist for that matter, requires you to be CREATIVE. There are a lot of people who will tell you how powerful this is and how technically powerful that is, and all they do is sit around and tweak this or that and stand back to admire all their flashing lights and gizmos. You have to decide whether you want to be an engineer, or an artist. I choose the latter. Of course you need to be technically minded and know the tools to realize your ideas. That is why the Mac is used so much by artists. It bridges the gap between the tech and the art. The OS itself is inspirational. PC users will tell you all the time that Macs are overpriced, etc. etc. and yes they are expensive, but you get what you pay for. I’m not sure what kind of work you do, but do yourself a favor and learn Motion as well. I edit hundreds of commercials with tons of animated graphics with extremely tight deadlines. Motion is nothing short of the 2nd coming of Jesus for people who need to impress clients by yesterday.

    • #180264
      Avatarcomposite1
      Member

      Broken,

      First off, you need to read the forum posting rules about using ALL-CAPS and BOLD lettering to make your statements.

      Second that stuff you’re talking about Mac’s being used by artists and PC’s being used by engineers is a broken record and is also false.

      That you’ve found something that works for you is great. You like mac’s, great. But your opinion is subjective. I’ve used mac’s for years and don’t like them for various reasons. However, I recognize that people are going to use what works best for them and I want to make sure that whatever they use, we can pool our resources and get the job done.

      This PC vs Mac debate is ridiculous. Be kind enough to give it a rest.

    • #180265
      Avatarbrokenjack
      Participant

      I knew that would get under someone’s skin. Don’t get so angry, it’s just that, my opinion. And yes, I hate to break it to you, but most opinions are subjective. That’s what forums in the free world are all about aren’t they? The sun will still rise tomorrow. I did not attack anyone personally. Ok sorry about the ALL-CAPS thing, you got me there, but policing peoples opinions? Come on. It just sounds more like you got offended. If the PC vs MAC debate is so ridiculous, why on earth are you perpetuating it by replying in defense.I don’t care what people use, I was just supporting one person’s decision to go the Mac route. And if the forum doesn’t allow bold in the text, why does it say Allowed markup: strong at the bottom of my window.

      hmmm… after going back and reading your posts, it seems to me that in fact you have started this debate with your passive aggressiveness toward the Mac with your well placed jabs. You also offered up some subjective opinions of your own.

      And the debate continues

    • #180266
      Avatarcomposite1
      Member

      Broken,

      A) Not angry.
      B) Couldn’t care less about Mac’s or PC’s. Actually hate them both.
      C) You say you were ‘just voicing your opinion’ but to make a statement that suggests someone is ‘not creative’ because of the type of equipment they use is ridiculous.
      D) Read Cfulton’s post on the FAQ’s for writing forum threads.

      And please spare me your layman’s psychological analysis of what you perceive passive- agressive speech is. What may ‘seem’ to have been started by me has only been an effort to keep balance in the conversations. Many of the readers who join the forums don’t know ‘poop from shineola’ about the two platforms therefore I want to make sure they hear both sides. Also, if you’ve actually read my posts in these forums you would also know that I’ve never discouraged anyone from choosing one platform or another and always encourage them to find out for themselves. Lastly, everything that I have ever said about PC’s and Mac’s has come from years of direct usage either fully in one platform or working in concert.

      And you are also wrong about me ‘policing’ people’s opinions. I called you out on your erroneous statement. In a debate there is point and counter point. Statements made must be supported by facts. You have yet to provide hard evidence. If you wish to do so, please start another thread.

    • #180267
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      Ha. Always funny to listen to people “debate” the Mac v. PC issue. Let’s lay down some definitive standards we can all agree on.
      (1) Macs and PCs are both computers.
      (2) Phenomenal video and animation is edited and created on both.
      (3) Each individual is entitled to his own opinion as to which is best.
      (4) Because both are so different in many aspects, we cannot compare them and say positively that one is better than the other. (That’s like saying apples are better than oranges. Ok. Yes. In apple pie, apples are better than oranges. But for making orange-juice, apples just won’t work.)

      Professional filmmakers accomplish things of equal caliber on both Macs and PCs.

      Therefore, it is a worthless wast of digital breath to dispute over the definitive “better-ness” of one or the other.

      Goodnight.

      Jeremy

    • #180268
      Avatarbrokenjack
      Participant

      Oh my! Welp anyways Sargehero, congrats on your purchase, you made a wise choice in my opinion

      Lighten up Francis

    • #180269
      Avatarvanlam
      Participant

      Good choice SargeHero. I love Vegas (And still use it w/ SoundForge for audio editing/mixing), but for more complicated projects, Final Cut Studio is a much better choice (Plus Motion and Color are amazing extras).

    • #180270
      Avatarbrokenjack
      Participant

      Hey sargehero,

      I’m not sure what hardware you went with on your mac, but I just built a PC and loaded OS X on it just to see how well it would hold up in video editing. I am now running it as my main computer with Final Cut Studio. It is extremely stable, and I saved about $3000 extra bucks by not getting a Mac Pro. There is no IO card in it though. It’s a core i7 w/12GB DDR3 and a 1GB ATI 4870 vid card with dual monitors running at 1920 x 1080. I still cannot get over how well it handles 25 layers of 720p in Motion.

    • #180271
      AvatarXTR-91
      Participant

      Wow, this thread started a good six months ago. Considering that the poll is actually closed (never heard of one being before), I’d have to give Sony Vegas the edge with the right combination of price, features, and functionality. I’vehad little experience with Final Cut Pro and no experience with Adobe Premiere. Premiere seems very functionable, but outcosts Sony Vegas Pro 9 by nearly $200-$300. Final Cut Express (MSRP $300)is great if you’re in the $1,200+ realm of purchasing Mac systems.

      Here’s my take on the age-old Windows vs. Mac phenomena: Microsoft seems to be chasing after budget consumers and businesses with features that burst right through the doors. Apple seems to be implementing the ‘high-quality’ system that is designed to handle media and suit the needs of a fanatic who wants a good, stable, and less virus-prone system.

    • #180272
      Luis Oscar MaymiLuis Oscar Maymi
      Participant

      Over this past months I have learn to use Premiere Pro and have edited several proyects. I started editing in Vegas Pro 8 and comparing it with Premiere I like Vegas a lot more. Vegas inter-phase is more user friendly than Premiere and from my experience is easier and more comfortable editing in Vegas. In Premiere you start with 3 video and audio tracks in the timeline (the video is above and the audio below), in Vegas you have a huge timeline with unlimited video and audio tracks rearrange any way you like (this is something I miss a lot) Another thing I miss are the markers and regions, which you could see the lines all over the timeline with an specific color (is use that a lot). In Premiere the markers are not that powerful, but they are still useful. Now Premiere have an incredible powerful tool that Vegas does not have, which is the “Dynamic Link”. Using After Effects, Photoshop, Soundbooth and Encore along with Premiere you can make anything you desire and instantly see it in the other program. This is extremely useful in the editing process because you will never have to say “Sorry I cannot do that effect in Vegas” (this happen to me editing a short film) Despite my personal experience with Adobe and dynamic link my vote is still for Vegas Pro as my preferred NLE. Is a shame that they don’t have it on Mac OS.

    • #180273
      Avatarcomposite1
      Member

      Sarge,

      I currently use both adobe and sony product suites. Vegas/Acid/Soundforge for audio finishing and out to PC media format. Adobe for graphics, mographics, flash production and crossplatform collaboration in QT. Both suites have serious muscles in their own right’s but have weaknesses that I use one or the other to counter. Soundbooth is a snazzy little program but gets stomped into a fine paste when compared to the soundforge/acid combo. Vegas and Premiere are both workhorses but when combined with their other components (i.e. premiere/photoshop/afx or Vegas/Acid/Soundforge) turn into other-worldly tools. I’ve used vegas since ’07 and premiere since ’99. Both are easy to learn and are reasonably priced (premiere in the bundle that is) but neither program alone is a game-changer in my eyes or experience.

      As far as Vegas being available for mac, you can hold your breath until FCP goes cross-platform while your at it. Not going to happen. Just like apple, sony makes computers too (Vaio anyone?) and just like apple are carving their own niche out of the market.

      Brokenjack,

      That rig you built is called a ‘Hackintosh’ and though I completely admire the ‘spirit of building’ you’ve exhibited, that thing is mad-illegal in the eyes of the mac-nazi’s. I wouldn’t post to the world that you’ve got one of those things up and running. One thing though, it is a testament to the fact that except for some lines of code, there is nothing different between mac’s and pc’s anymore except for the price and the hype. BTW, my name is not ‘Francis’, ‘Surely’.

    • #180274
      Avatarbrokenjack
      Participant

      Don’t be too over dramatic. I wouldn’t call that mad illegal. Robbing a bank is mad illegal. There is some gray area concerning the EULA. It states that the software can be loaded on apple-labeled hardware. Stickers are included with the OS. There is a huge number of people (including legislators) who believe that if you buy software, you can load it on anything you want. I don’t think an apple lawsuit would hold up in court thus the wording of the EULA. I don’t think the “apple nazis” will be showing up at my door anytime soon. Plus there is a whole fraternity of people who have broadcasted the fact they have done the same thing. Heck there is even a website dedicated to hackintoshes. Educational info should not be censored. Plus not everyone can do it. You have to know what you are doing. Milage varies from rig to rig. My rig happens to be one of the more compatible ones, and now overclocked to 3.6Ghz it’s pretty sweet to say the least(yes I know, my engineering pc side has surfaced). Your reference to “some lines of code” made me laugh a bit. Microsoft itself proved that it was all about software, not hardware. OS X is way different than Windows let me tell you. The hardware may be the same, but the experience is way different. Apple will probably do their best to make it more difficult to do this in future updates I’m sure.

      I guess I got the “Airplane” reference

      I’m not sure you got the “Stripes” reference

      Put it on you netflix queue, it’s classic Murray.

      ….Wait a second, there are some people outside getting out of what looks like a giant apple on wheels, they all have on black mock turtlenecks and jeans…..Oh my god! there are swastikas burned into their foreheads! Tell my family I love th——–

    • #180275
      Avatarcomposite1
      Member

      Brokenjack,

      You’re the one who obviously has no sense of humor. And as usual, you take things completely out of context.

      I know what a EULA is.

      And you’re right, ‘You don’t think’. Yeah, you can put the stickers on a ‘Hack’ but you try parading that thing into the Apple Store trying to get tech support.

      I also know there’s a website dedicated to Hacks. I posted it here many months ago and I’m very much in favor of people building Hacks but until Apple unpuckers their stance on systems not built by them, I strongly recommend they keep a low profile about it. The guy who invented Napster thought what he had started was okay too until the big music corporations decided it wasn’t. You let Apple get a bug up their backsides about Hacks and see how much the EULA they wrote with their lawyers will protect you.

      And stop trying to trade quips with me. You’re not remotely funny and completely unarmed.

    • #180276
      AvatarAnonymous
      Inactive

      Wow… I can feel the love in the air…

      BTW, u 2 guys are funny. =D

    • #180277
      AvatarRob
      Participant

      how is a hackintosh not super illegal?

      I don’t know much about what you two are talking about because it just isn’t something that interests me, but i’d assume a hackintosh falls under the category of piracy. You’re stealing software. You get the OS when you buy a Mac, and if the software is on a PC, then they obviously didn’t buy a Mac. Therefore, stolen. No?

    • #180278
      Avatarbrokenjack
      Participant

      You’re the person the kids love to prank call, because you keep picking up the phone. I never said you didn’t know what a EULA was.

      Listen, I have no animosity what so ever toward compostit1. It’s just a friendly neighborhood peeing contest. We all have our opinions and it’s fun to spice them up sometimes with a colorful debate. Nobody was personally attacked, no kittens died, it’s just two strong willed people having a go. You should see me with my best friend. You would think we were married.

      As to the software piracy issue. It is most definitely not. Apple sells their operating system standalone without the computer. It’s called the snow leopard box set(which I bought), and comes with ilife and iwork for about $130. It’s actually a pretty good deal. There is just some gray area whether or not it’s legal to install it on whatever hardware you want, and that’s a debate that’s almost as fiery as the Mac vs. PC debate. Composite1 was right when he said the so-called Mac-nazis would disapprove. I can’t stand the Mac nazis myself, and I know a few. Most of them don’t really appreciate the unix underpinnings. I think it’s up to the individual user to decide if it’s ethical or not. No, I don’t think it’s right to sell hackintoshes, and you will obviously be under scrutiny, but I think it’s OK for the computer hobbyist to mess around with it. I work for a large production company, and I do all my paid work on an Avid DS Nitris system. It’s PC based, and other than the crashes(from the unity indexer I’m sure) I experience on a weekly basis, it’s a decent professional platform to work on. I don’t really talk about the DS since it’s out of the realm to aquire for most users on this site, including myself. We have 3 of them at work, and we shoot a lot of redcam 4k and cinealta HD, footage, so it’s nice to work with that footage in so called real-time.

      Happy Holidays folks…get out there and make some stellar video.

    • #180279
      Avatartjtyrrell
      Participant

      My preference is Adobe Premier because of the massive integration of the entire Adobe suite (as others have said)! And it only gets better as the Adobe Suites progress (curses Adobe for holding back awesome features to make you buy the next round of CS, but it’s good business and I’d rather have 10 features done REALLY well then 150 new half-hearted features)… So anyway

      I’ve also used Final Cut and think it’s an incredible piece of software for a Mac (I am, however, a PC user, gasp)… So if you have a Mac I would have a hard time suggesting between the two and would make that decision based on Finances (since I normally buy the entire Adobe Suite it’s only natural for me to use Premier)… As far as integration, FC is great as well (and getting better) and also connects to Apples version of AfterEffects (Motion, which is also a great piece of software).

      Between those two, it’s a personal preference (I only say that now, a few years ago I would say Final Cut Pro, hands down).

      I’ve only used Vegas a few times years ago and wasn’t impressed. But at the same time I wasn’t impressed with Adobe’s Premier (before “Pro)… So I wouldn’t be one to say anything good or bad about Vegas (and it was Vegas’ cheap version)…

      There are a lot of forums asking the same thing you are (Google “vegas vs premier vs finalcut”)… At this point you probably need to look at these three things:

      Personal History: Which company have you had the best experience with? Are you proud to be an Apple owner? Love your Adobe Suite? Adore your Sony Vaio? A company with a good history is veryinterestedin keeping you as a customer and should continue to create content you love.

      Personal Finances:
      Final Cut Suite: $999http://bit.ly/73glHp
      Adobe Video Suite: $1500 (but includes Photoshop, Illustrater)http://bit.ly/7XadpH
      Vegas Pro: $600http://bit.ly/6166p9

      Not totally a fair cost comparison, I only chose those versions because I am an all or nothing kind of guy. Adobe and Final Cut both have cheaper versions that would do the job, but what is $1500ish when you are serious about your craft? You’d spend over $4k for a car, so ride a bike for a while until you have the money ;)… So as mentioned before, how much money do you have and how much software do you need?

      Personal Preference: This, at this point, is the most important. See if you can get your hands on a few demos. I believe all three companies offer 30 day trials. I ALWAYS recommend trial software as it allows you to get your feet wet. At the same time I would also suggest registering with Lynda.com for a few months and use the tutorials for each software (for example, get a 30 day trial of Premier, take the Lynda.com tutorials for Premier… Once that trial expires, do the same thing for Final Cut, then Vegas)… Get dirty! It’s the only way YOU will personally be satisfied.

      For example, I like a lot of movies, a lot of movies I like are not popular and not all of my friends like them. So if I were to rely solely on my friends there would be a lot of movies I would miss… I rent the movies if I am unsure and at that point still haven’t committed to a purchase!

      I hope this all makes sense!

      Good luck!

      TJ

    • #180280
      Avatar8string
      Participant

      jumping in late:

      My curiousity in all this is that I’m ramping up for some better quality production, using a new Panasonic HMC150, and have been both a Windows and Mac user for over two decades. My MacBook Pro is good enough to run FCP, but only supports 2GB RAM and I don’t particularly want to spend another $2500 to $3k to buy a MacP. I’m at the cusp of buying into either (or both) editing worlds (Mac or Win7 as base OS). Why? Because I bought a wonderful 6 GB RAM, Quad core HP Desktop for under $600 (wish I could buy a MPro for that!) for some software development work. So I would really like to take advantage of that quad core and large RAM for that particularly processor intensive AVCHD format. Given that, are any of you Windows users running a package that doesn’t crash on Windows7? It seems that many of the packages I’ve tried to load don’t yet support it (Panasonic software shipping in box does not support Win7, won’t even install). I’d love to be rendering at full bore with lots of cores and huge RAM use.

      I don’t want to spend $1000 on software for both systems, but is there a decent reason to run some specific software that takes advantage of Windows7 processing on the quad cores and then move it to the Mac for better editing? Or is all this just overkill? Maybe just load up the Windows machine and learn to use a total package on that? Sell it and splurge on a MacPro on Ebay so I have less hardware incompatabilities?

      My worry is that my experience with Windows in general, and why I’m on the Mac in the first place, is that Windows has always been much more problematic for me in getting accessories to work right, and in unison. After trying in vain for weeks to get my Sony video camera to work right with my Windows machine (three years ago), I just went out, bought the Mac and it all worked. I’ve never had a problem getting an accessory to work with my Mac, (try getting Protools to run on either machine and you’ll know what I’m describing) and that is not the case with previous versions of MS, whether XP or Vista. Win7 seems better, but…

      Thanks for any thoughts, in advance. This thread has been very edutaining, and I always chuckle when the Mac vs. PC arguement comes up. I remind everyone, it’s just a tool! I like my screwdrivers too, but could you imagine if there were as much debate about which screwdriver to use! I’ll use the best tool for the job, but it seems that in this case, folks are using both to do professional quality work.

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