24p native: Worth upgrading to it?

Anonymous (not verified)

The subject of 24pn (native) vs 24pf (or whatever you want to call 24 fps embedded in 60i with pulldown) has been covered extensively all over the internet. So, we all know what it is & how it works. - except the most important issue has never been adequately explained:

What the heck does this mean to ME?

I am trying to decide if I should upgrade my HFS100 to the HFS200. The only real difference is native 24p. The best I can figure, once conversion has been done, the main advantages of true 24p native are:

1: More recording time on the card.

2: Possibly more information per frame, but this is debatable.

3: Possibly less editing hassles, as you don't have to do an intermediate pull-down conversion. - but i depends on what software you use.

4: Some claim that 24p native lets you pan with no stuttering. - not confirmed.

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According to some (confusing) reports, 24p native can actually be a hassle, because some software (Vegas?) doesn't support it. I have yet to actually edit any 24pf footage, so I am not sure how much of a hassle 24pf is.

Man, am I confused. Can someone shed some light on this subject?


Charles Schultz's picture
Last seen: 4 years 6 months ago
Joined: 10/25/2010 - 10:38pm

Allen, it all depends on where you show your videos at, are they online, tv, movie theaters? As far as I know, the only place that uses 24p anymore is in movie theaters. Most TV stations use 60i for HD and I believe it is 30i for standard def. Personally, I never use 24p as most of my vids are for the web and tv. I do have one commercial playing in the theaters but it was shot at 30p and most of those are shown digitally.


Charles Schultz's picture
Last seen: 4 years 6 months ago
Joined: 10/25/2010 - 10:38pm

I have not worked with Vegas Pro so I do not know if there would be any issues in editing. As far as I am concerned, there are no negative factors using it, I just prefer 30p as most of my vids are on YouTube. When you upload to YouTube, they convert it for you so it is really up to you.

What kind of videos are you working on that are 4+ hours long? Those must be some huge file sizes and rendering times.


Rob Grauert's picture
Last seen: 3 years 9 months ago
Joined: 02/16/2008 - 10:47pm

Charles,

Nothing on television is 30i because there is no such thing as 30i. Everything that is broadcast is 60i.

Allan,

Charles is right. Whether you want native 24p or 24p with pulldown depends on what you're doing in post and what you're delivering to.

Yes, you can upload 24p to the web, but computer screens generally work at 30p. So 30p is ideal. If you what you're doing, you can work in native 24p and add the proper pulldown when you're finished editing so you get 30p for the web, but maintain the look of 24p.

Disregard anyone who says you should go with native 24p simply because higher end TVs support native 24p and some viewers will be able to tell the difference. Anyone who sits in front of the TV and complains about the frame rate is a tool.

24p doesn't cause stuttering either. Sure, it's a slightly choppier, blurrier look, but that's different from stuttering. If the editor is experiencing stuttering playback, they're computer is not properly equipped.

I know that most folks transcode with Neoscene [...]because there are (were?) problems with Vegas' internal de-interlacing. However, supposedly this takes up a HUGE amount of hard drive space.

This doesn't make sense all over the place.

People transcode because Vegas doesn't de-interlace well? You're talking about working with 24p. It has nothing to do with interlaced video.

Second, even if Vegas deinterlaced your footage, de-interlacing shouldn't really be changing the file size.

Third, if it did make larger file sizes, so what? Get a bigger hard drive. You're talking about upgrading a camera but you don't have money to throw down for a larger hard drive?


Rob Grauert's picture
Last seen: 3 years 9 months ago
Joined: 02/16/2008 - 10:47pm

I forgot to mention that pulldown was invented so you could record 24p to tape. You actually want to edit it. Generally, you want to be editing footage that is actually 24p, but if the only think you're doing is cutting, it's fine to ingest your footage as 60i, treat it as 60i through post, and then export it as 60i. 24p with pulldown is in fact 60i, which is why you treated as 60i.


Charles Schultz's picture
Last seen: 4 years 6 months ago
Joined: 10/25/2010 - 10:38pm

Rob yoiu are right to say there is no 30i, I meant 30p.


Rob Grauert's picture
Last seen: 3 years 9 months ago
Joined: 02/16/2008 - 10:47pm

According to B&H, there are 2 24p recording modes for the HFS200 - "Native 24p Mode" and "24p Cinema Mode." According to them, Native 24p Mode is actually 24 frames per second, while 24p Cinema Mode is 24p with pulldown, making it 60i.

"They also say that Vegas will see the data as true 24p and not require de-interlacing. - which makes no sense if it's @ 60i."

Since you're talking to tech support and asking about a consumer level camera, they're probably over simplifying it, which is causing more confusion. What they might mean when they say, "Vegas will see the data rate as true 24p," is that the video playback will look like 24p even though you're playing back 60i, which you already know. And when they say, "and not require deinterlacing," they probably mean the footage doesn't need a pulldown removal to achieve the film-like frame rate.

So, in you're first post you said you're trying to figure out whether you should upgrade from the HFS100 to the 200,, And you also stated that native 24p is the only real difference between the two. Unless you have a good reason for NEEDING native 24p, I don't see a reason to spend $650. But hey, I won't stop you from stimulating the economy.


Rob Grauert's picture
Last seen: 3 years 9 months ago
Joined: 02/16/2008 - 10:47pm

Sorry, I didn't answer your shutter speed question because shutter speed has nothing to do with enabling a camera to shoot native 24p. Generally, you're not going to be shooting at either of those shutter speeds anyway. They're too slow.

Does the HFS200 have a mode that is actually called 24pn? Because I thought the information I pulled from B&H would have cleared up your confusion. The HFS200 has two 24p modes. One is native, one is recorded with pulldown.


Rob Grauert's picture
Last seen: 3 years 9 months ago
Joined: 02/16/2008 - 10:47pm

No, slowing the shutter speed does not cause your image to stutter (neither does increasing the shutter speed). Instead, slowing the shutter speed will create more motion blur because the image sensor remains sensitive to the light for a longer period of time. So if the HFS100 had a maximum shutter speed of 1/6, and the HFS200 has a maximum shutter speed of 1/2, all they're telling you is the HFS200 is capable of shooting at a slower shutter speed. That's all. It's just plain irrelevant when determining 24p capability. Make sense?

Your source is correct in saying that the shutter speed should generally be twice as fast as the frame rate, though, unless you have a reason for changing it.

I'm not sure what else to tell you, though. B&H seems pretty clear - one mode is Native 24p and the other mode is 24p with pulldown. Isn't that what you wanted to know? What unanswered questions are you left with?



Rob Grauert's picture
Last seen: 3 years 9 months ago
Joined: 02/16/2008 - 10:47pm

IF there is a difference is quality between 24pn and 24pf, I HIGHLY doubt it's noticeable and will make a difference. You'll see a difference in quality between codecs before you see it in frame rates.


PJ McConnell's picture
Last seen: 2 years 7 months ago
Joined: 11/12/2010 - 2:19pm

This topic is making me laugh a lot. It seems to me like it is not worth it to get the HSF200, at least not for the reasons you are looking into it. On the other issues, you might be worrying a bit too much. It is good to understand what your software and camera is doing but you can go overboard. If you can work with the camera and the footage looks the way you want it to, that's all you need to know! Most technology these days handles those issues you are worrying about behind the scenes and shouldn't affect the outcome of your videos too much.