Why is Final Cut so popular?

31. robGRAUERT
    Member

    

     "Oh, by the way.  Macs do crash they just don't head for the ditch like a pc.  I can't tell you how many times my mac has just frozen and I had to drive it into the ditch on purpose and reboot to get back on the road."

     

    I agree. I too am a Mac user and have had a Mac crash on me a few times; however my MacPro has been flawless. But anyway, i think people are under the impression that when we Mac users defend Mac, we are saying that they are perfect. Nothing is perfect, and everything has it's flaws, and nothing lasts forever. It's just that my experience with Macs has proven that they are rarely problematic, and if I do have a problem, it us often very simple to fix. 

    Rob Grauert, Jr
    http://www.robgrauert.com
    http://command-r.tumblr.com

    Posted 3 years ago #

32. jerronsmith
    Moderator

    

    There is another reason why FCP is so popular.

    It is one hell of a good piece of software that fulfilled a need in the industry when it came out.

    The idea that has been expressed here that AVID or FCP are bad because some of the people on this forum who tried to pick them up and use them without taking a class or going through some kind of instruction had a problem is wrong. The person who described AVID as ass backwards because they didn't understand the logic behind the work flow demonstrates the ego-centric nature of many computer users. These programs are not intuitive and probably can't ever be, every professional level application that I have ever seen has a learning curve, every one of them. The more applications you know well the easier it tends to be to pick up new software that follows a similar design pattern. However, this can lead to problems when you try to learn something that is significantly different.

    If you leaned Vegas and then pick up FCP you will probably approach FCP expecting it to behave like Vegas does.  This will inevietably lead to frustration. While some programs are very similar to each other (FCP and Premiere Pro being two examples) many are not. This doesn't make a program "ass backwards" or "wrong", it simply means that the logic and design behind them are different. Since many people on the forum think so highly of Vegas Pro, I downloaded the trial. Because of my background using FCP and PP, Vegas while pretty easy to figure out just seems off, since it doesn't follow any of the standards that I have become used to for video editing applications. This doesn't mean that Vegas is bad, just that it follows a different set rules for how I am expected to work in it.

    Jerron Smith
    Editor-Animator-Educator
    blog: http://www.thepixelsmith.blogspot.com

    Posted 3 years ago #

33. ThomW
    Member

    

    This discusion intrigues me to wonder if there is a forum amoung farmers who argue over what tractors will harvest their fields best.  Or, if contractors discuss which power tools they root for.  We must have alot of time on our hands.  I bet the bushmen tribes of New Guinea don't quiver over how to grow and cook their potatoes as much as they are just thankful to have something to eat.

    I spent a lot of time trying to figure out which computor to buy and based my final decision on a PC because there were so many more options and opportunities to use a PC.  I was told that Macs were more expensive.  That wasn't true.  Once I out fitted the hardware to be able to do the job that editing video demands it cost about the same.  Like comparing a Ferrari to a Civic.  If you want a Civic to perform as well as a Ferrari then you have to modifiy it with some after market parts.  Pretty soon you have spent as much money as you would have if you had just bought a Ferrari.

    I made a "pros and cons" list for why to buy a Mac or a PC and at the time there were so many softwares that will not work on a Mac.  My computer unfortunatly was not going to be designated strickly for video editing and that meant everything included the cd-roms that came in my kids cereal box needed to be able to run on my computer.  There are countless softwares like CAD like programs that cost less then $10 or even free that I was interested in but could not run them because there were no Mac compatible versions available.

    Thanks to all of you guys out there using forums and spending lots of time sharing your thoughts.  I've concluded one thing.  Those who own a PC are generally happy.  Those who own a Mac are also generally happy.  But, those who own both a PC and a Mac seem to be the happiest.  For there is little they can't do.

    This industry sometimes forgets that there was a time in the not so distant past that the only time you got paid was when you woke up the next morning and went back to work. Earning royalties for something you did 20 years ago is only a recent phenomenon.

    Posted 3 years ago #

34. brandon0409
    Member

    

    With the new intel versions of Mac, isn't it possible to run Windows on a MAC?  I have a friend that actually runs Windows within the MAC environment.

    Does anyone know how to do this?  This would certainly alleviate most of the PC hardware issues.

    Posted 3 years ago #

35. jerronsmith
    Moderator

    

    Brandon,

    There are several ways to run the windows OS (and therefore windows programs) on an Intel Mac.

    The latest Mac OS natively supports an application called bootcamp which can create a new partition on your mac harddrive and let you install a copy of Windows XP (I think Vista works also) on it. Once installed you can hold down the alt key at stat-up o choose which partition to boot into.

    There are also third party programs like Parallels that allow you to open the Windows OS at the same time the MacOS is running.

    Posted 3 years ago #

36. Don
    Member

    

     "(I think Vista works also)"....rumour has it...Vista....doesn't work on ANYTHING!

    lol! 

    Posted 3 years ago #

37. robGRAUERT
    Member

    

     Why would you buy a Mac to run Windows anyway....

    Posted 3 years ago #

38. jerronsmith
    Moderator

    

    Rob,

    Two reasons I can think of:

    1-Because there are certain programs that some people may need that are Windows only. 3D application for example tend to be more readily available on the Windows platform. Of the three main ones (Maya, 3DStudioMax, SoftImage)  only Maya has a Mac version.

    2-Because certain programs that are available for both run better on a PC than on a Mac

    Posted 3 years ago #

39. jerronsmith
    Moderator

    

     Don,

    I meant merely that you could try installing it.

    Getting it to run is between the user and god.

    lol

    Posted 3 years ago #

40. Don
    Member

    

     ROFL!!!!

    Posted 3 years ago #

41. brandon0409
    Member

    

    I have been using Windows all my life.  But for the past couple of years I have converted to MAC and love it. But like Jerronsmith said, there are some apps that only work on a PC.  While I have a PC, I'd rather not have to go to the other computer, do what I need to do, then download it over the internet/external drive/magic or however I would do it.

    Really that is the only reason.

    Posted 3 years ago #

42. blumantaray
    Member

    

     Too many people have said it better than I coul, and in more technical terms, so I'll just add that FCP has way more sex appeal than PP and Avid combined.

    Posted 3 years ago #

43. jerronsmith
    Moderator

    

    Blumantaray,

    But thats only marketing. Sex appeal has little to do with whether or not the product will do what you want it to do.

    Posted 3 years ago #

44. aburke3
    Member

    

     Not long ago, video editing was not done on a desktop computer. I wonder how long it will take us to get back to that point?

     

    -AB 

    Posted 3 years ago #

45. EarlC
    Moderator

    

     The client (most of them anyway) simply does not care. You can build a house with a hammer and a handsaw, but who would want to.

    Another irony is that the vast majority of those who expound against one or the other have never used the other, nor seen one in operation.

    People who know their tools can make them sing regardless of the platform. It doesn't matter! Period!

    I use Mac because I picked up one when it was a 512K machine. I started my first newspaper using Mac's then highly advanced, since totally antiquated Classic and the first laser printer they came out with - as expensive as they were these units made it possible for me to START a newspaper with its revoluntionary desktop publishing. I could NEVER have afforded the investment into the THEN publishing industry equipment to have started my own business.

    Jump forward to Mac today, and the graphics and video environment into which this system has pushed. Again, as expensive as Mac stuff can be, it is still affordable when one considers the Big House alternatives of not so long ago. This goes for PCs as well, and in the old days of long ago and far away (well, as far as California from Texas anyway) many, MANY of us could NEVER have become independent professional video services providers without the advent of the Amiga Toaster/Flyer, Macs and the various PC platforms and software that helped equalize the industry.

    Now many of the big boys and botique shops are competing, using PC and MAC based systems and software.

    Ongoing debates on forums everywhere, such as the one here that became inevitable the minute somebody wanted to know why MAC/FCP was so popular, are cute, but do not go beyond giving somebody something to opinionate over to no real significant level of objective input. Kind of like seeing who's fart stinks worse.

    I liked the farmer/tracter analogy.

    Posted 3 years ago #

46. Aspyrider
    Member

    

     Its the digital equivalent to "My dad can beat up your dad". :D

    The end of this debate is whatever works for YOU. Mac, PC, can telephone. It doesnt matter. If you are comfortable with it, use it and squeeze the best outta it. Like Earl said, the wonderful architecture of that house is in the architect, not the hammer.

    Posted 3 years ago #

47. brandon0409
    Member

    

    This might have been a valid debate 10 years ago, when MAC was the industry leader in video and graphics editing.  But today, like everyone else said, it's what you build not how you build it.

    The editing systems are so equal today, it just comes down to what you are comfortable with.

     I like FCP but I have used some of the others as well.  For PC I like Adobe PP.

    Posted 3 years ago #

48. composite1
    Moderator

    

    It's amazing to me how this debate (pc vs mac) is still going strong for so many years. It seems like centuries ago I got my first laptop PC (Packardbell 486) back in '94.Flash forward to '96 and my first gig in a major production house force-fed me mac os 7. Way different interface from pc, but doable. At that time for digital production (graphics and video) mac really was the only game in town. In '97, I got my first pc workstation and with photoshop and premiere was doing amazing stuff at a fraction of the cost my former gig paid for their $50k media composer setup. I looked into building my own mac workstation (remember mac clones?) but by '99 mac put the kibosh on all of that.

    By 2000, I was on my own and starting my own company and still couldn't stare down the barrel of paying for a mac setup + software + support gear and production gear. However, Sonic Foundry (now ameobically absorbed by sony) came out with some godsend software based tools; sound forge and acid. So, working with an adobe / sonic foundry pipeline I could get some really amazing stuff done at a fraction of the cost using a mac based system. I didn't hate macs, just couldn't afford them.

    Fast forward to `02 through some major funding, I trained on avid media composer (mac), symphony (pc) and got a copy of avid dv express (production bundle pc/mac). FCP was just getting started and couldn't compare to avid at the time. However, I was still using premiere to get short fuse jobs done. You just couldn't beat the adobe/sonic foundry pipeline for getting things done on the cheap. One of the previous posters said something about 'FCP' being the tool of the independent filmmaker. Well, for the 'insurgent filmmakers' like me (no bankrolling studio, few if any investors, no distribution deal with just a solid plan, skill and determination) mac has not remotely been an economical choice. Now, though I like another poster, can build powerful workstations that could vaporize a comparable mac for less money the new problem is the old one. Whereas before you could mix and match software (and platforms) to get the job done, it's now getting harder because companies are making their 'pipelines' more proprietary. Though this makes for more streamlined work within the pipeline, it makes mixing and matching more difficult and more expensive.

    Now unfortunately, I hate macs. Not because they don't work (they do) or don't crash (they do.) I hate the dogma that 'you're not serious unless you use macs.' I know that's all based on marketing and people's attitudes, but I do get a nice cold feeling when people see my company's work and can't believe we 'did it' without a single mac in the process. Now, I've got my beefs with microsoft too! However, unlike mac it's still ok to go out and build your own (but that's changing).

    Am I going to run out and spend untold amounts of money to retrain and retool to accomodate a transistion to mac? Not likely. I do however insist my collaborators work cross-platform because that's the reality of the industry. So I do my best to make sure we use programs that can 'play nice' with others because 'it's on' when it comes to getting the job done.

    H.Wolfgang Porter, Composite Media Producer
    Dreaded Enterprises Unlimited, Inc.
    http://www.dreadedenterprises.com

    Posted 3 years ago #

49. pol
    Member

    

    I also don't like Final Cut and I hate Macs.  Vegas and PCs for me. There is also Adobe stuff that won't run on Macs. I don't know, PCs make more sense to me. Two button mouse and no command key. I like it.

     Dud if you are sticking with a platform for the sake of not using a control key....... that's just wrong..... at work I use all of the autodesk line of products on PC's, and they are all ok...... but in my home studio I use mac with FCSP and just got my CS4 production premium bundle. and like it way way better.... It's ok to like your PC, but I've never met someone who was a MAC user that moved to PC.... they are usually the other way around..... oh and by the way my mac can run windows but I only use it for Real Flow

    Posted 3 years ago #

50. robGRAUERT
    Member

    

     i hate when people complain about a one button mouse. They make a 2 button mouse now, and if you don't like that you can plug in your own mouse. 

     And the command key is the apple key.

     It's one thing to hate, and other to hate when you know nothing about what you're hating.  

    Posted 3 years ago #

51. Don
    Member

    

     I use a mac 'cause it workz.

    reliably, and undeniably.

    If you choose to use a  windoze infected pc....good for you.

    not my problem. I will bury you if you try to compete with me, and I don't care what system yer using. 

    Posted 3 years ago #

52. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hello everyone.

    I apologize for 'resurrecting' this old thread, but if I may, I would like to ask a question of all you Apple owners.

    Generally speaking, how is Apple's support? 

    I am not in the market to purchase at the moment, but does Apple let one purchase a base-model unit, and then add one's own components?  

    Apple wants $6,100.00 for 32 GB of RAM, and they also want about $300.00 for a 1TB hard drive.  One can get Seagate 1.5TB HDD's for about $129.00 each (with a five year warranty); and I am sure Crucial RAM is faster.

    If one was hypothetically to purchase a Mac Pro with the minimum amount of RAM and HDD's, would Apple be happy to provide support if one then purchased additional RAM and HDD's after-market?  Or would they look to void out the warranty, and discontinue support?

    Also, does anyone know how HP does with that sort of thing?

    Thank you very much,

    Norman

    Posted 2 years ago #

53. XTR-91
    Member

    

    Apple's Final Cut Pro is very (and I mean very) high-end software with graphics, full-feature audio editing, and a ton of editing possiblities.

    Ok, so the crowd on this thread is growing... yeah, im just gotta run...

    Posted 2 years ago #

54. robGRAUERT
    Member

    

    Norman,

    Apple's support is very good. You are speaking with someone in Cali. rather than someone in India.

    You can purchase a base model Mac and add your own components. If you do that, you will lose your warranty agreement thing, but I suggest doing it anyway. I ordered extra RAM and SATA drives from OWC. It's much cheaper and still mac certified.

    Like I said above, the warranty would be void if you purchase from another vendor, but if you call and ask for support they will still help you. You just can't get a new Mac if your computer blows up or something, which is rare anyway.

    Posted 2 years ago #

55. CalPix
    Member

    

    Just as a note on Rob's comment above, my understanding from the dealers and online guru's - if you don't physically break something (like drop a coin onto the motherboard with the power on), adding RAM and/or internal hard drives does not void the Apple warranty.

    As to some of the previous comments - I've used both Mac and PC platforms extensively. I actually do have both on my desk at this moment, with a KVM switch using one monitor, keyboard and (3 button) mouse. I much prefer Mac because I know the machine itself is built to very high standards with usually great parts (there have been exceptions, but for the most part, very good) and software that has a (generally) consistent interface and plays well with the hardware. And, AVCHD issues aside, Macs have always played with PC files much better than PC's play with Mac (and often PC) files.

    I can't say that for the dozen or so PC's I've used over the years.

    If you're not a "technical person" that has the knowledge to properly build your own machine - and the vast majority of people really don't - Macs are a better choice.

    So for the OP - FCP is so popular because it makes the job of editing reasonably easy for a decent (though not free) cost on a platform that does a very good job with few issues. When you want to get the job done without becoming a "technician" for your computer, Macs generally win, and FCP has been the application of choice.

    (BTW - if you're equipping a medium to large studio, experience has shown that tech support for Macs costs one third that of PC's. Put that into your Cost of Ownership calculations before your purchase.)

    Neil

    Posted 2 years ago #

56. daryldrj
    Member

    

     Ok Check out what these guys say

    http://www.studiodaily.com/main/searchlist/10924.html

    Posted 2 years ago #

57. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hi Daryl.

    That was a great vid.  Everyone should watch that.  Especially the last part.

    Norman

    Posted 2 years ago #

58. composite1
    Moderator

    

    Daryl,

    I meant to post that video, but I thought it might have been too advanced for many of the novices on these forums. Those folks are at the top of the game, Hollywood Industry Pro's. Much of what they had to say is relevant to the independent producer and the novice starting out. Unless you're rolling with budgets and deep-pocket client lists like they have, you'll need to take the info they passed on and apply it at your scale. The thing I found most intriguing was how they mentioned how Adobe is making inroads on both FCP and Avid, but didn't mention how Vegas is becoming very popular with american broadcasting and editing reality tv for broadcast.

    The thing that will make Premiere eventually become equal to or greater than FCP in market share is that it is crossplatform. Avid will maintain its dominance because of that. Despite Apple's marketing mantra 'Get a Mac' and Microsoft's ball dropping with Vista, there are people who for whatever reasons will stay loyal or switch back and forth from either. The programs that work crossplatform will be dominant. Years ago, Apple gave in and allowed the Apple version of MS Office, because everyone in the business world saw it as the standard (and still do). I know lots of PC editors who would use FCP if it were crossplatform, me being one.

    With everything in the industry compressing, being able to collaborate will be more important than ever and being able to do so amongst Apple, Windows and Linux will keep software viable (and profitable) in the coming years.

    Posted 2 years ago #

59. daryldrj
    Member

    

     Hey composite1 I agree 100% with what you are saying but I thought that while people are always asking this question in all kinds of fourms they should see what the big guys are saying. Basically that is the way most people see things they want to be like the pros, so if the pros are saying FCP is that way to go everyone jumps on that train for the most part not all though. Besides I cut my teeth on Vegas and I will continue to use Vegas thats me. I can do everthing in Vegas that a person can do in FCP and Adobe. Trust me I know this as I also have CS3 on my computer as well but all i really use from that is AE. Take a look at this training video that Dr. Eric Franks does on D-Juice with vegas and listen to what he says about Vegas

    A Ray of Light with Motion Designer's Toolkit in Sony Vegas Its all about prefrence even the big guys had thier loyalties

    Posted 2 years ago #

60. NormanWillis
    Member

    

    Hi Comp.

    >>I meant to post that video, but I thought it might have been too advanced for many of the novices on these forums. Those folks are at the top of the game, Hollywood Industry Pro's. Much of what they had to say is relevant to the independent producer and the novice starting out. Unless you're rolling with budgets and deep-pocket client lists like they have, you'll need to take the info they passed on and apply it at your scale.

    I know I said that on another thread, but please let me say it again for the benefit of others who are reading: "When in doubt, please post."  I have begun ranging onto other forums in order to find the technical data I need, because the stuff is not readily available here on Videomaker.  Something about the VM forum, I dunno, I just like it.  I just wish the pros like yourself would post the more technical stuff as well, so I don't have to roam.

    I think it is really, really nice that you give such consideration and respect to beginners and hobbyists, but I think most people are smart enough to filter and sort out what they do and don't really need.  I know I am hungry for more.

    Hi Darryl,

    >>Hey composite1 I agree 100% with what you are saying but I thought that while people are always asking this question in all kinds of fourms they should see what the big guys are saying.

    I totally agree with that.  That video helped me a lot.  I have about a year and a half left on this workstation before I can upgrade, and I am seriously considering the Mac and FCP, just because I value my time (and fewer headaches) more than I value the money (and I think that's the way to go).  However, that video made me stop and think at a much higher level: if Steve Jobs is ill and people are already leaving the FCP team, then I should really pay more attention to what the alpha dogs are saying and doing.  Nice post, and please keep 'em coming.

    >>Besides I cut my teeth on Vegas and I will continue to use Vegas thats me. I can do everthing in Vegas that a person can do in FCP and Adobe. Trust me I know this as I also have CS3 on my computer as well but all i really use from that is AE. Take a look at this training video that Dr. Eric Franks does on D-Juice with vegas and listen to what he says about Vegas

    I completely agree with that, and I love Sony Vegas (a lot).  Just the fact that I can throw anything at all up on the timeline without conversion is so nice, it makes me want to stay loyal to it.  However (and there is always one of those in this industry) I am very frustrated with Sony at the moment, because just like they try to squeeze more money out of people with their proprietary nonsense in their cameras (e.g., 'Memory Stick' instead of Compact Flash or SDHC cards), they also like to keep secrets from third party vendors, and don't provide support.  It makes it so very limiting. 

    For example, Matrox MX.O2 will not work with Vegas, and while BMD works, it is not officially supported.  Also, Vegas Pro 8 worked with Boris and Cineform, but now in version 9 there are issues between 32 and 64 bit.  Either the Sony developers failed to coordinate with Boris and Cineform, or else they 'forgot' to include the same drivers in v9 as they had in v8; so now we have to wait for the v9a patch before we can use those things in both 32 and 64 bit.  I don't know how this affects other people, but I find it frustrating in the extreme, because I need the larger media sizes that v9 supports, and I just went to a lot of trouble to go 64 bit, because Sony said they were going to get behind their software.  I just don't get it: Sony does not treat their cameras or their laptops that way: so why do they treat the most promising software platform in the world that way?  It is like they are sitting on it, hoping to suffocate it to death when they could be helping it to become the champion of the world.

    And why optimize for AMD, when most of the world has gone Intel?  And why not make it cross-platform, so it would work on either a PC or a Mac?  I would love to go Mac for my machine, but I don't want to lose Vegas.  So if Sony is getting behind their software as they say, then why are we stuck with one platform, and why all the bugs, and lack of third-party integration and support?

    I just don't get it. 

    >>Take a look at this training video that Dr. Eric Franks does on D-Juice with vegas and listen to what he says about Vegas

    I apologize, but I do not see the link.  I would love to view that video.  Can you please point me towards it?

    Norman

    Posted 2 years ago #

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