Those who do Weddings..... « Videomaker Community Forums

push-play
Member

For those of you who do weddings I want to know if it's ok to use copyrighted music for your clients. The reason I ask that is because I heard that as long as it's for the client personally it's ok to use. I have also visited different websites that have demos from weddings created and they use copyrited music on their sites. Lot's them also let the client choose their own music. Is it ok to use this on websites and client projects?

Posted 7 years ago #
compusolver
Member

It is my understanding that it is not alright to use copyrighted music on your website without proper written permission.

It is technically not alright to use it in a client's wedding video either, although it is done frequently and the chance of a lawsuit here is probably rather slim.

Posted 7 years ago #
Videoman
Member

In Australia it is NOT OK to use copyright music what so ever - regardless what it is used for or how long the music excerpt is.

I am going out on a limb here and say that the states would be the same.
Oz seems to follow a lot of USA copyright laws so If you want to use copyright music you have to get permission from the music body in your state. We have APRA, Amcos and Aria. You have to let them know the name of the song(s), the artist and the recording company. Then you have to pay a fee for each song. Public domain and royalty free sounds better every day doesn't it?

Posted 6 years ago #
DSR-200
Member

my philosophy is, if they sue, what are they gonna get? i'm broke anyway. i use whatever music i want to for the weddings i do.

Posted 6 years ago #
SFChuck
Member

If some were to shoot his/her own wedding and put copyrighted music under it FOR HIS/HER OWN USE, that's OK. For someone in the business of shooting wedding videos for sale, the matter of copyright clearance is an issue.

The reality, however, is that the probability of getting caught is slim.

There are companies that are in the business of providing "buyout" music specifically for commercial videographers to use in post production. The prices range from fairly reasonable to...well...way beyond that.

This should not be construed as legal advice. Consult with your attorney.

Posted 6 years ago #
DSR-200
Member

who has an attorney? why would you need one to shoot weddings?

Posted 6 years ago #
SFChuck
Member

My comment concerned my statement that the probablility of getting caught was slim. But I didn't want someone to construe that as legal advice.

If they are seeking legal advice on copyright law or any other topic, they should consult with their attorney and not rely on anything posted on these forums.

Posted 6 years ago #
Videoman
Member

If you get caught - chances are ?????
You're broke - they don't care. Say goodbye to what assest you own or what percentage of assets you own
Say goodbye to your computer and video stuff - that'll be the first to go.

Copyright is such a darn pain, that's why I use public domain and royalty free music.. I use smart sound too. Music is a little expensive for my liking.
Aussie dollar makes it dearer to purchase, but still worth it.

Posted 6 years ago #
DSR-200
Member

i have no assets......i have a computer but it's not paid for, my equipments not paid for, my car isn't paid for........if you're going to take chances, you might as well do it while you're young and broke!

Posted 6 years ago #
compusolver
Member

It might help to have a separate agreement for the music part of your videos. Have the client provide the music, sign that they have the rights to have you include it in the video and hold you harmless from legal action. ("Hold harmless" is a legal term the basically says they will be liable for any actions taken against you.)

But then, if you're willing to take legal advice from a videographer, I've got a bridge to sell you. X-D

Posted 6 years ago #
SteveMann
Member

The "Hold Harmless" clause is a thin protection that is most successful in intimidating the client. The fact is, as a videographer, you are expected to know better and if you if you were sued by the RIAA, the "hold-harmless" paper would likely be nonadmissible because the client cannot be reasonably expected to understand the meaning of "rights to use" copyrighted works.

To the best of my knowledge, no videographer has ever been sued for adding music from a client's CD to their wedding video. There have been quite a few "cease and desist" letters sent to those videographers stupid enough to put popular music on their websites' demo videos.

I don't think that the RIAA is ready to test the water over this. It is perfectly legal for a bride to add music from a CD that she bought to any of her videos. If the videographer only acts as her employee to do this for her, then where's the violation?

Steve (Not a Lawyer)

Posted 6 years ago #
Videoman
Member

Look,
I honestly believe the "Big Boys" are really after those out there that are Pirating music cd dvd etc. If they were to go for every Tom Dick and Harry who used some music for a "Hobby" video or a one off video productionmn ( how many DVD's ??) of a wedding they would sueing just about the whole world. Then they would clog up the court system for decades- perhaps centuries on copyright infingement and leave no time for the serious crimes that require judical expediency.

If in doubt purchase a permit.
If your game do without, keep your mouth shut and suffer the wraith if caught.

Posted 6 years ago #
i43 Productions
Member

If you're dumb enough to use copyrighted music without permission, you deserve to get caught and sued for thousands of dollars.

using music for personal stuff (i.e. little video of junior playing with new toy) probably not a problem...still a little on the hazy side, but overall not too bad.

using newest hits from Country Music Superstar Toby Keith during memorable moment when lovesick couple says "I Do" at the alter and kisses...then selling the video to said lovesick couple and their family and friends...definitely and totally illegal.

it's never worth the risk.

Posted 6 years ago #
SteveMann
Member

".then selling the video to said lovesick couple and their family and friends...definitely and totally illegal."

Would it be illegal for the bride or her husband to add the music to their DVD themselves? No.

Re-use of a music CD on other forms for personal use has been accepted by various courts as legitimate "fair use". In fact, there are services that, for a fee, will transfer your CD collection to your iPOD. Some of their websites are linked from the record label's sites, so they must be OK with the practice.

What the record companies don't want to test is that the wedding videographer is probably doing a work for hire. (Those who disagree, start a new thread and we can discuss that issue). As a work for hire, if the couple provides their music CD and pays you to add it to their wedding video, then they, the employer, are responsible for copyrights. Not the videographer / editor.

Steve

Posted 6 years ago #
Endeavor
Member

And just to be sure, I have a clause in my contract that states that the client not only is responsible to provide the music, but also that they have acquired the necessary rights to the music and any other matrerial in the production.

Posted 6 years ago #
SteveMann
Member

"And just to be sure, I have a clause in my contract that states that the client not only is responsible to provide the music, but also that they have acquired the necessary rights to the music and any other matrerial in the production."

It doesn't let you off the hook. At best the clause may make the client reconsider using the music in the video, but you are considered the professional in this transaction and you know better (about copyright issues). At worst, it is an admission that you do understand the copyright issues.

If the bride brings you an Enya CD, you know damn well that they don't have licenses to sync the music to their wedding video. You can't pass your responsibility to their lack of knowledge. If the RIAA wants to make a case, this defense will last all of five minutes.

Steve Mann

Posted 6 years ago #
compusolver
Member

No argument - if you're talking about the videographer using the resulting video to promote his business, but the client does have the right to make copies for personal use, of music they've purchased. Providing the service to put that music on their wedding DVD - in my opinion - would be defensible.

Posted 6 years ago #
SteveMann
Member

compusolver Wrote:
No argument - if you're talking about the videographer using the resulting video to promote his business, but the client does have the right to make copies for personal use, of music they've purchased. Providing the service to put that music on their wedding DVD - in my opinion - would be defensible.

The Client Does.

That's the operative word here, and I suspect why the record industry really isn't going after wedding videographers. It's also a very strong argument for the wedding videographers to change their business paradigm, which I have discussed before. If the videographer is clearly doing a "work for hire" job for the bride, then the employer (bride) is responsible for copyrights. The videographer is just an employee.

Steve Mann

Posted 6 years ago #
multimediabill
Member

OK, here is a topic that may help all of us.
I am not going to try to explain the law. I will not be saying that it is OK to use music without permission. I will not be trying to justify using music or anything else illegally. I will not be saying that anyone is right or that anyone is wrong. Let's JUST CHAT about real evidence to prove these points. With that being said...

Some of you say: "it's OK to use music in your videos as long as you don't get caught. And that the chances of getting caught are very slim.

Some of you say: "Don't do it" I know the law, and it's not OK to do this. If you get caught, you will be in big trouble"

Now let's do something different. Let's just talk about the "FACTS".

Will anyone here please post any "articles", "web links", "reference materials", "court public records", etc. that demonstrate that wedding videographers got sued or in trouble because of the use of regular music on their video presentations?

If this is true, let's DEMONSTRATE that this is really true, by posting facts of real life situations in the business. Things that "really" happened to a videographer and lets prove this point.

Again, let's not talk about the law anymore. That has been covered here many many times, and we will all be repeating ourselves over and over again. Let's more on to FACTS and EVIDENCE.

Who has any evidence, articles, web links, etc that demonstrate this fact?
PLEASE share these with us.

Posted 6 years ago #
Endeavor
Member

Wether or not anybody ever got sued for it does not indicate wether it's legal or not. So if you want "evidence", go read the law. I'm sure you won't understand it any more than the lawyers don't.

Posted 6 years ago #
SteveMann
Member

Endeavor Wrote:
Wether or not anybody ever got sued for it does not indicate wether it's legal or not. So if you want "evidence", go read the law. I'm sure you won't understand it any more than the lawyers don't.

No one knows anyone who has been sued by the record industry for putting unlicensed music in a wedding video, let alone any first-hand experience. There have been a few wedding videographers who received C&D letters for the use of unlicensed material on their website. (Stupid)

As I've said before - the whole issue is one that the RIAA is not likely to pursue because a judgement against them is not something they want to risk. According to an IP lawyer that I talked to (unofficially, off the record, at a party...), putting a bride's music CD on her wedding video has some defensable angles, and the RIAA probably doesn't want to test them. They go after the defensless ones, the 12-year old kids, the 83-year old grannie and one dead woman. They go after the biggest scare - not unlike the schoolyard bullies who pick on the weakest kids. Suing a 12-year old kid strikes fear into millions of middle-school kids that download illegally. Suing a wedding videographer might scare a few dozen or even a few hundred videographers into finding legal music. Just not enough effect for the potential downside. Besides, they just might pick a videographer who would put up a good fight.

On a side note, there's a few artists who are tired of the RIAA actions, and one in Canada has sued the RIAA. A couple of others have flat out said to the RIAA - "You don't represent me!". Among them, Janis Ian (she has a very well written essay on her web site about the RIAA suits) and Country Joe who says he made more money on one concert tour than all his record sales combined.

The RIAA really pissed off the artists about a year ago when they got a Senator to insert one line into a copyright markup bill that would have defined all works created by the artists as the label's property by defining anyone under label contract as doing work for hire. Fortunately, that was defeated.

Steve

Posted 6 years ago #
multimediabill
Member

Endeavor Wrote:
Wether or not anybody ever got sued for it does not indicate wether it's legal or not. So if you want "evidence", go read the law. I'm sure you won't understand it any more than the lawyers don't.
Endeavor, like I said, we have talked about the law enough here. My comments was to talk about evidence and the reality of the situation. I am not saying it's right or wrong, that's not the issue with my comment.

Do you have any example cases, evidence, and/or actual facts that you could share with us? Please do. We are ready to read any posts you may have.

Posted 6 years ago #
Endeavor
Member

Do you have any example cases, evidence, and/or actual facts that you could share with us?

Nope! That was kind of my point. Until a judge rules in a case (which may or may not happen), there is kind of a grey area so all we can do is try to respect other peoples works.

Posted 6 years ago #
multimediabill
Member

No one knows anyone who has been sued by the record industry for putting unlicensed music in a wedding video, let alone any first-hand experience. There have been a few wedding videographers who received C&D letters for the use of unlicensed material on their website. (Stupid)

As I've said before - the whole issue is one that the RIAA is not likely to pursue because a judgement against them is not something they want to risk. According to an IP lawyer that I talked to (unofficially, off the record, at a party...), putting a bride's music CD on her wedding video has some defensable angles, and the RIAA probably doesn't want to test them. They go after the defensless ones, the 12-year old kids, the 83-year old grannie and one dead woman. They go after the biggest scare - not unlike the schoolyard bullies who pick on the weakest kids. Suing a 12-year old kid strikes fear into millions of middle-school kids that download illegally. Suing a wedding videographer might scare a few dozen or even a few hundred videographers into finding legal music. Just not enough effect for the potential downside. Besides, they just might pick a videographer who would put up a good fight.

On a side note, there's a few artists who are tired of the RIAA actions, and one in Canada has sued the RIAA. A couple of others have flat out said to the RIAA - "You don't represent me!". Among them, Janis Ian (she has a very well written essay on her web site about the RIAA suits) and Country Joe who says he made more money on one concert tour than all his record sales combined.

Steve
SteveMann, thanks for sharing your comments. Now we are getting somewhere with this discussion.
Anyone else? Any cases or experiences that you can share with us?

Posted 6 years ago #
luke409
Member

Got to say I'm a little surprised by the quality of advice offered here about using copyright music.

While I'm not a lawyer, I am experienced enough in media production to know that it requires 2 licenses... one for the rights to use the music, the other is for the rights to synchronize the music to images.

They are 2 distinct licenses, and if you're going to do it right, you need both. That's why "you can use the bride and grooms original music CD" is bogus... even they don't have the proper rights (synchronization rights) to set that music to the moving images on the DVD you do for them.

The choice is still simple, however. You can purchase rights or you can steal. It is true that RIAA probably won't come after you, but you will still be a thief whether they do or not. If you can live with that, you got it made.

Posted 6 years ago #
compusolver
Member

First, to be calling people here a "thief" is way out of bounds, you're talking to honorable, decent people here. You would not want to say that to my face. I feel that the moderators should remove your post.

I've licensed music before and at no time has anyone ever mentioned a "license to synchronize music to video". In fact, put that phrase in quotes and Google it and nothing appears.

The music industry knows full well how wedding videos are made and they could easily make it known if they had any serious objections.

You may know production video, but I would challenge you to send proof of a single wedding video that ever had a synchronization license - or any other kind of license, for that matter.

And just knowing that getting licenses isn't done for wedding videos, then making your outrageous statement, makes me wonder..

That's all I have to say about it, unless you'd care to come to Oklahoma and call me a thief.

Posted 6 years ago #
Video-maniac
Member

Way to go Hank!

Look everyone... while discussing this particular topic on this forum can be very stimulating... (IMO) we're just making a mountain out of a mole hill. We are talking about using music in a little wedding video of which whatÂ… maybe youÂ’ll make 3 to 6 copies ofÂ… and then you present these to the newlyweds as a memento of their special day. WeÂ’re not talking about broadcasted syndicated sit-coms or reality shows here.

What, I listen to the radio and tape a song that was played over the airwaves so I can listen to it when ever I want <OR> I "buy" a CD and use one of those songs and now IÂ’m a thief? As was mentioned earlier this is such a gray area that no one even bothers wasting time dealing with it. IÂ’m reading this whole post and the bottom line is that there is no bottom line. ThereÂ’s just a GRAY line. It is fun to read through however. :D

RAM

Posted 6 years ago #
multimediabill
Member

I agree with Hank and RAM. There is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that any of us have heard of and it is NOT ENFORCED for what we can all clearly see here. Not even ONE SINGLE PERSON has provided one single evidence or proof.

You can explain the law until you are blue in the face, but that is not going to change things. The only thing that will change this is for the big guys to go after videographers (or others like wedding DVD producers, etc.) using regular music on their videos and/or DVD's. And for what we can all see, that's never going to happen.

Again, we have talked about the law enough here. Let's get to the REALITY and EVIDENCE of things. We are not arguing what is right or wrong, we are arguing how things REALLY ARE.

And by the way, just because we are talking about the reality of things, it doesn't mean that we agree with people using music illegally, ( if it does really matter to the folks NOT doing anything about it to start with ). We are not saying one way or another. We are just talking about how things really are. That's all. Simple. So let's not insult each other for no reason. Let's talk like professionals and mature people. We are here to help and share with each other.

luke409, if you really want to contribute to this topic and really be productive, don't just call anyone here a thief. Put your comments into ACTION and provide us with EXAMPLES and EVIDENCE. Any "articles", "web links", "reference materials", "court public records", etc. that demonstrate that wedding videographers got sued or in trouble because of the use of regular music on their video presentations?
Let's see how really good you REALLY are. We will be waiting for your posts.

Posted 6 years ago #
SteveMann
Member

According to my IP lawyer friend, it's not likely to happen because wedding videographers are a very tiny segment compared to the millions of teens and college kids that they (the RIAA) are trying to scare.

To this date, no one knows of a single wedding videographer who has heard from the RIAA for including unlicensed works in the weding videos that they produce. Yes, there have been some "cease and desist" letters, but that was for being stupid enough to put demo videos online with unlicensed music.

Steve

Posted 6 years ago #
luke409
Member

Wow, quite a reaction. I didn't mean to be controversial. I assumed most people understood these things. Hopefully, the moderator will not censor these posts as they are very legitimate perspectives, ones newbies should know about.

As a person who has copyrighted many things, I value copyright. The term means that the owner of the copyright has the right to allow copies to be made. If someone makes a copy without permission or without paying, even one copy, then they have infringed the law. Those of us who have been ripped off, and organzations like the RIAA, sometimes refer to it as theft. Not a pretty word, but there you go.

Some people claim it is "fair use," but most professionals in video production know that seldom holds up. You can read the law for yourself at http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sec_17_00000107----000-.html

Don't know about synchronizations liscenses? Amazing! My search for - "synchronization license" music - on Google yielded 14,400 hits. You can find good summaries at:

http://www.signature-sound.com/11quest.html#q3
http://desktopvideo.about.com/od/audio/a/musicrights_RO_2.htm
http://www.gbod.org/worship/music/mechanical-license.pdf

There is a good Producers Guide at http://www.copyrightclearinghouse.com/publications_producers_guide.php

From my knowledge and experience, I do think it is wrong to take something that doesn't belong to you without paying or without permission when it is required by the laws of our land. I do think the laws I have referenced apply to those who make professional videos, including wedding videos, as referenced in the sites above.

I am truly sorry if I offended anyone. I just wanted to be a helpful contributor and share my knowledge with others.

Posted 6 years ago #