Red Scarlet « Videomaker Community Forums

anindya49
Member

Hi. I wonder if anyone is excited about the Red Scarlet camera which is supposed to come out sometime this summer. It's supposed to have a 2/3" sensor, and shoots video in RAW format (all this for around $5k). Do you think it's going to transform the low budget/indie video industry?

Posted 2 years ago #
Derek Sine
Member

DLR's look pretty promising, not gona lie. But I think the scarlet has a fighting chance. After shooting with the Red a couple times, the workflow is a downer. Regardless, the industry is totally changing online content is taking off.

We should be getting a scarlet here for review, by the way. I'll keep you guys posted!

Derek Sine
Trails Ventures, LLC.

Posted 2 years ago #
grinner
Member

I think we've all learned by now that no single product is going to "transform the industry". Yes, things are changing over time and yes, I'll be scooping up a Scarlet like many of us. Will it transform my company? Naaa... just part of a never-ending and quite enjoyable evolution.

http://grinnerhester.com

Posted 2 years ago #
Don
Member

Well make no doubts, I am a Pentax camera collector, but I keep buggin' people I know, that know people.... and with a little luck, maybe this thing will do video as well as stills:

http://www.camera-pentax.jp/new/

if it does, It might well be worth buying over the Red system for me...

all drooling aside, it would make sense for my business...

some of the rumors have it with a 39mp sensor and dual sd slots and an hdmi out... those specs combined with the website teaser showing motion video behind the silhouette and Pentax's recent success with video capable dlsr's all give me reason to hope!

Posted 2 years ago #
composite1
Moderator

RED cameras make great images no doubt, but unless you're doing high-end work for high-end pay they are not worth the money to buy or rent as an independent. With the DSLR's from Canon, Nikon, Pentax and Sony you can do nearly everything a RED does in less time, money and space. For the 5k you'd blow on a SCARLET you can get a 7D, a couple of good lenses, 2-4 high capacity CF cards, extra batteries, a bag and probably a portable drive to download your footage. Best of all, you'd have an image that is slightly larger than a Panavision Super 35mm! I'm sure you could make similar claims with the other models.

I'm with Grinner saying the SCARLET won't be a game changer. In fact I'll go so far as to say I think RED's a 'year late and a hundred bucks short' with their release. They'll still pull in RED devotees, but the DSLR's are the 'big kids' on the block now.

H.Wolfgang Porter, Composite Media Producer
Dreaded Enterprises Unlimited, Inc.
http://www.dreadedenterprises.com

Posted 2 years ago #
anindya49
Member

@Derek: Great! I'll be looking forward to the review.

I agree video DSLRs do look promising, with huge sensors by video standards. One thing I'd like to see is the ability to shoot video in RAW format. As with stills, it allows for more options during post (an oft-mentioned advantage of the RED system).

The other things the VDSLRs should have are the usual camcorder features like zebra, peaking (for focusing), unlimited record times (sensor overheating is apparently a problem here).

Posted 2 years ago #
composite1
Moderator

Anindya,

For the 5DMkII there are a number of firmware updates from Canon and third parties that give not only zebras, but audio levels and more. I'm with you on the "unlimited clip thing", but I do believe that it is as much an issue with the cards being formatted in FAT32 as the overheating CMOS. Though 12 minutes is a good deal of time for one clip, depending on what you're shooting that could be a serious limitation. I wouldn't mind seeing a RAW setting as well but it must not be that big an issue as many high-end production co's that use RED cameras also use Canon DSLR's to back them up.

Posted 2 years ago #
yourvideographer
Member

Believe it or not, The reason why there is a 12 minute limit recording time for one clip is because the EU put a Tax on it, so you can only have a 12 minute record time. I think that is a crazy reason, but blame the Europeans on that one.

Posted 2 years ago #
anindya49
Member

@composite1: Thanks, I was not aware of the firmware updates for the 5D. That's nice. However, I don't think FAT32 limiting clip sizes is really an issue. Sure, files cannot exceed 2GB, but why not split the footage into more than one file, and keep doing it till the card becomes full?

Many camcorders do the same thing (multiple .mts files), using a FAT32 filesystem on the SDHC cards.

@yourvideographer: The EU tax restriction is silly. Why does it apply to NTSC cameras? Canon can just make a NTSC version, right?

Posted 2 years ago #
composite1
Moderator

Anindya,

Concerning the FAT32 issue, that was just one of the issues that came up in the 'White Papers' I read for the Canon DSLR's. The primary issue mentioned was overheating the sensor. I'm aware of 'file splitting' but as I remember, they mentioned something about that and took it into consideration when designing the cam. Besides, wouldn't a 12 minute clip in 720 or 1080p be much larger than 2GB's even with compression?

As for 'Your's' 'European Connection', I just let it pass.

Posted 2 years ago #
CraftersOfLight
Member

Just spent the day at a local video show. CMVS10 was put on but a local store that deal with high end video. Had a great time. Two seminars were given on the 5D and 7D by Canon. Excellent demonstrations on the video qualities of both systems.

During the Q and A at the end, this issue was brought up at both sessions and the response was interesting. The 12 minute window had nothing to do with the CMOS. That it had everything to do with the FAT32 format of the memory cards and the max file size that format can support. One even went so far as to say that the recording stops because the camera's OS has to write the "end-of-file" marker which disrupts the data recording.

Life is not a guided tour nor a destination.
It is a journey. Take the time to enjoy your family, friends and surroundings.
Build memories. Share experiences. Travel at sight speed not light speed. (C)

Posted 2 years ago #
yourvideographer
Member

Due to EU tax regulations the cameras are limited to 30 minutes of shooting in their SD modes, which equates to a 4 gig quicktime h264 file. At HD bitrates this results in a 12 minute shot. Neither camera has been found to have issues with immediately shooting follow-on shots, so the limitation seems solely based on the EU video camera tax limit.

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/canon-eos/5d-mark-ii-vs-7d-for-hd.html

Posted 2 years ago #
yourvideographer
Member

That is the article where I got the information on the 12 minute limit, I hope you enjoy the reading!

Posted 2 years ago #
composite1
Moderator

Crafters,

Ever since I heard about that FAT32 issue I've been curious to see if you could reformat a CF card to NTFS would both camera and card function properly and allow you to make clips longer than 12 minutes.

Posted 2 years ago #
composite1
Moderator

Your,

Okay I took a look at the article and the reasoning is retarded. Instead of doing like they have always done with PAL vs NTSC and just make a 'EU' version Canon makes a blanket version to sell everywhere else? Now that there are firmware 'hacks', now I'm seriously interested in one for getting past the '12 minute mark'. Still though, don't blame the EU. Canon is the one that caved in for that foolishness.

Posted 2 years ago #
CraftersOfLight
Member

Composite1

I have tried reformating a couple of flash cards, SDHC, to NTFS. I can read and write to them from the PC fine. But plug them into a camera and it reports back with a "Check Card" error. I don't think the camera's OS is able to recognized anything other then FAT32 or, in some cameras, FAT16

Posted 2 years ago #
composite1
Moderator

"I don't think the camera's OS is able to recognized anything other then FAT32...."

Crafters,

I figured as much but it was a nice dream anyway. The drawback of making sure that the cards work in both Mac's and PC's.... I miss the days of 'PC and Mac' formatted media. Ah well, maybe it was too much to ask for Canon and the others to write an OS for the cameras that could read both. In the meantime, let us pray for a firmware hack that works.

Anyway, we digress. This thread originally wanted to know if the SCARLET would 'change the game'. So far we haven't heard from any dedicated RED users or wannabe's to give us their POV.

Posted 2 years ago #
anindya49
Member

A couple of comments:

I think at least some Canon camcorders use the exFAT/FAT64 filesystem, which allows for large files. Why not use this on the 5D?

The mac can read NTFS just fine, so there's no problem using it as the card's filesystem.

Posted 2 years ago #
composite1
Moderator

"The mac can read NTFS just fine, so there's no problem using it as the card's filesystem."

Yeah, but if you want to write anything you need third party drivers to do so. And you mean the 'exFAT' format (FAT64 doesn't exist.) Not even Snow Leopard can read a volume formatted with exFAT. NTFS and FAT formats are completely different file systems which is why mac users have such fun creating their virtual machines mixing and matching mac/pc software. But don't take my word for it, read the journal of a mac user trying to get his Snow Leopard powered mac to work with exFAT:

http://blog.lewan.com/2009/10/13/sharing-an-external-drive-between-a-pc-and-a-mac-exfat-discussion-results/

I don't believe formatting a CF card to exFAT would work either simply because the built-in OS probably wouldn't recognize it either.

Posted 2 years ago #
anindya49
Member

That link was interesting. Btw according to the wikipedia page on exFAT, FAT64 is just another name for it. It's called that because of 64-bit cluster addresses: this is what allows for a large files/drives. I guess it's not a popular name. SL doesn't read it, but possibly Canon can include a driver/utility program; just a thought.

As regards to NTFS, to transfer footage from a camera, you just need to read it. I don't suppose you need to write out to a SD card often. But you're right: writing is still a problem.

Going back to the original topic: I do hope RED releases Scarlet on time. I have been planning to upgrade from my little HF200 and so far the Panasonic HMC-150 looks really good. Hf200 is nice, but I want full manual controls. The Scarlet's estimated price puts it in the same range as the 150, but with vastly superior hardware.

Posted 2 years ago #
Don
Member

Pentax cameras don't have that restriction.... record to the capacity of the card.

Question...

Are you reformatting your cards in camera or in computer? I hear it is not advisable to reformat in computer.

as far as red is concerned... it was a great idea, and I look forward to seeing a review, but hope the camera brand I own brings out something that is compatible with the lenses i already own...

intersting watch:

Get the Video Plugins

Posted 2 years ago #
composite1
Moderator

D0n,

That's a great little video and a prime example of how the RED SCARLET may be a 'year late and a hundred bucks short' with its delivery. I'm still wiping the drool at the prospect of being able to mount 5D's and 1D's in numbers like they had 'just for plates'.

I knew eventually the move towards using these cameras for 'principal photography' as was mentioned was a matter of time back when I saw LaFloret's breakout video using the 5DMkII. If Canon pull its collective head out and rolls on the request for motion picture-grade lenses since Panavision had foolishly left the field wide open for them, that would be a game changer.

Still though, I'm interested in what the SCARLET will bring to the game. Right now though it's going to have its work cut out for it.

Posted 2 years ago #
composite1
Moderator

Okay since nobody is rushing to defend the SCARLET against the DSLR's, here's a screengrab of 'Izzy' shot with the RED SCARLET:

http://redgrabs.com/izzy/

It definitely looks great, but it's $4k just an 'All-in-one' version with a permanent zoom made of inferior glass @ 3k resolution. Granted, it is RAW format but the 5DMkII is rated at 5k. I've recently read some (rephrase, 1) complaint about artifacts being prevalent in all the DSLR's when shooting at deep DOF. Nothing I've seen so far made me notice anything like that and since I have yet to take one out for a spin, I can't say it doesn't. I'll still hold judgment on the SCARLET until after more video shot with it comes out.

Posted 2 years ago #
anindya49
Member

composite1, can the 5D output higher than 1080p? If not, then how is it rated at 5k? I read a post by Jim on reduser.net ("Resolution 101") in which he compares the resolution of the 5D with various RED models. It seems the 5D delivers less resolution, after the conversion to 1080p.

Is there a way to capture the raw sensor data from the 5D through some kind of external hookup?

There's a post in RED's defence for ya :)

Posted 2 years ago #
composite1
Moderator

"Can the 5D output higher than 1080p? If not, then how is it rated at
5k? I read a post by Jim on reduser.net ("Resolution 101") in which he
compares the resolution of the 5D with various RED models. It seems the
5D delivers less resolution, after the conversion to 1080p."

Anindya,

As you may have read in post you mentioned the 5DmkII has a CMOS sensor that tops out at 21.1 megapixels (5,616 x 3,744 pixels) which is larger than the RED ONE's 12 megapixel (4520 x 2540 active, 4096 x 2304 max recording.) I guess for engineering reasons and to keep the cost of the rig down, Canon decided to down sample the images from the sensor for HD video by only using every third line making it 4:2:0 chroma sampling instead of 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 had they used more lines.

The RED ONE also hamstrings its sensor as well just not as significantly as the 5D. But the 5Dmk II is no doubt a 5k camera. Even if you can capture directly from the HDMI out to a laptop or such, I'm not sure how much of an extra bump in picture quality you'd get. So far I have yet to see a rig or adapter that would allow you to capture directly.

One thing is for sure, despite it being 'hamstrung', imagery shot with the 5D holds up to stuff shot with the RED side by side when blown up to theatrical sized projection. Now, the RED color corrects more fully from what I've seen but I can't give it a full thumbs up against the 5D in that respect because Ive only seen one example.

For more on the discussion of the MkII, 5k and a side by side comparison of the RED, 5D and others check out my past posts:

5k Anyone? and Advanced Info.

And that wasn't much of a 'defense' of the RED. You must be British-based English speaker based on your spelling the word with a 'C'. I say old man th' ball is in your court sir!

Posted 2 years ago #
anindya49
Member

composite1, thanks for your reply. So the 5D has a great sensor, but in its present form the data acquisition doesn't use it fully. Canon should look at providing an (optional) upgrade/firmware to capture raw data. We can then have a comparison with the new Mysterium-X sensor; it may even fare better than the RED!

I'm trying to decide whether to wait for the Scarlet, or go in for a HMC-150 or equivalent. Just wanted to get some opinions from you guys.

About "defence" - you're close: I'm based in Canada, where the British form is used more often.

Posted 2 years ago #
composite1
Moderator

"I'm based in Canada, where the British form is used more often."

Well howdy neighbor eh?

After re-watching the video from the "5k Anyone" post, I truly believe Canon whipped out some stuff intended for photogs and department that built it had no 'effin' clue what kind of beast they actually created.

Since the camera's video gear was more of an 'oh by the way' sort of gizmo they put in, they really missed the opportunity to completely blow RED out of the water. These days cheaper, better, faster are the real-world mantra in this biz.

If you've noticed, Canon has backtracked with the release of the 1DMkIV which has more controls but a bigger price tag. They're trying to play catch-up to the demand of what filmmakers are asking from them but they are still sticking to the old model of 'let's see how expensive we can make this.'

The two things that made this work for their DSLR's is they give phenomenal imagery and their cheap! Making the rig more expensive puts them in the same pile with RED.

Posted 2 years ago #
anindya49
Member

Hopefully all this innovation will eventually trickle down to the cheaper cameras. I'm a Nikon person myself (FM2n, F80, D80, and an assortment of lenses), and am holding out on upgrading till they release a decent video capable body. The D90 seems a bit frustrating. I prefer to use my cameras on manual as much as possible, except when shooting fast action.

I'm not a professional videographer (a physicist, actually :), more a serious hobbyist. I have done a little bit of freelance still and video work. I'm currently using a HF200 and have recently upgraded from iMovie to Final Cut Express, which I find is much better. However, my HF200 is not fully manual (though it has a lot of adjustments) which is beginning to frustrate me. The Sony FX1000 is looking very attractive to me, and its 60i wrapped streams are perfectly compatible with FCE (similar to HF200). Maybe I'll pass up on the RED and get the FX1000, and upgrade from my D80 to a VDSLR later on when the technology matures a bit. Another option is the Canon XH-A1s but I fear its native progressive modes might not work with FCE. The same goes for the Panasonic AVCCAMs.

It has been a very helpful discussion. Thanks everyone for your comments.

Posted 2 years ago #
Derek Sine
Member

Check this out!

Get the Video Plugins

Posted 2 years ago #
anindya49
Member

Thanks for the link! Nice to see that RED has some prototypes. On the other hand, the EOS 1D Mark IV is looking very enticing, with full manual controls for video, and a full frame sensor with amazing low light capabilities.

Meanwhile, Sony has released the HXR-NX5U and the A2000.

This is going to be most interesting.

Posted 2 years ago #