legality of filming a high school musical

(12 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by jstraub78
  • Latest reply from SteveMann
  • 1 Members Subscribed To Topic

    1. jstraub78
      Member

      Hi all.  I'm an avid reader of Video Maker, but this is my first visit to the forum itself.  I am a novice videographer, trying to make the jump towards turning it into a side business.  The part that concerns me the most is the legality of what I would be shooting.  My wife is the director for our local high school's musical.  She asked me if I would like to cut my teeth on filming their musical this year.  She thought that I could put together a nice video package and then offer it to the kids for a cheap $5 per dvd. 

      My question is that if the school bought the rights to the show, and I am deemed the "official" videographer for the show, would I be allowed to film it and sell the DVD's?  Personally, I could see doing this for free, just to get my feet wet, so to speak. 

      My wife performs in shows for a local theater company as well.  I have videotaped several shows for them, but only authored a few DVD's, more for archival purposes than anything else (I didn't charge anything for these).  The thing is, the company hired a "professional" for their one big summer musical and he charged like $20-25 per DVD for the cast and their families.  The show was Roger and Hammerstein's "Annie Get your Gun".  Did he technically also have to buy the rights to videotape this show or was that right transferred to the theater company when they bought the rights?

      So I guess the bottom line of my question is... what gives this guy the right to film their show and sell the video whereas I perhaps would not be allowed?

      Thanks for any help! 

      Joe

      Posted 2 years ago #
    2. jstraub78
      Member

      I was checking out this thread http://videomaker.com/community/forums/topic/videography-for-plays-and-live-performance?replies=19#post-40596 and it seems like it would at least have to be totally non-profit or any profits would have to be given back to the school's theater program?  Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing either, considering my wife could always use more theater funds for the kids. 

      Any thoughts?

       Thanks!

      Joe

      Posted 2 years ago #
    3. Kemper
      Member

      I started that thread and it had a lot of great advice and some that could end your career or hobby real quick. What makes the difference is one of two things. Either the videographer went through the proper channels and received permission (probably for $), or took a gamble and did it in hopes that they wouldn't get caught.  What I recommend doing is going to the source of the scripts (or sheet music) and ask them to spell it out for you. Ask the school for the proper contact info and make the call yourself and ask as many questions as possible. You can leave it up to someone else like the school or the directors, but then you are hoping they ask the right questions. If it were my rear on the line, I'd make the call. One question I still have; are all of the parents that shoot the play on their handicam and play it at home guilty of copyright infringement or is this just directed towards forms of reproduction?

      Cole

      Posted 2 years ago #
    4. EarlC
      Moderator

      Virtually ANY form of recording and selling, giving away, public presentation of any element containing copyright creative/intellectual content is illegal without having obtained the legal signed and notated releases from all individuals, companies, organizations, etc. who have a piece of the copyright ownership. That is the reality, with FEW exceptions like "fair use" "educational" etc. There ARE a LOT of gray areas (maybe? not really!) but again the REALITY of it all is that if you record, display, produce and give away or sell anything containing copyright material you are infringing on SOMEbody's copyrights and violating the usage thereof. That being said...

      SOME schools (performance groups) will be well-informed, know exactly WHAT rights they have purchased and have a document of some form stating what they have obtained. They will then, releases in hand, hire outside services for video, audio or other reproduction, sales and distribution.

      OTHER schools (performance groups) ARE NOT well-informed (or pretend to be so), DO NOT know exactly what rights they have obtained and might not even have gone so far as to obtain ANY rights. Many simply pick up a copy of a play, song, production, etc. and make copies of it (copyright violation in itself, more or less - copying printed copyright materials), and performing it, videotaping/recording it, selling it, distributing it - all going well beyond a host of copyright violations along the way.

      WHILE others in these situations know so and do so, willing to ignore the legal copyright violations involved, others wouldn't knowingly go that direction after being informed of the potential for litigation and some pretty stiff fines. (even jail time, eh...) More don't know and don't care, figuring they will continue to slip through the legal cracks and get by with it.

      So many of us in this business try to rationalize, mentally legalize, and otherwise find ways to justify doing this. A lot of people are convinced that their reasoning/rationalization is good-to-perfect, but would it hold up in court - NOPE! And as is noted in many legal documents... "...ignorance of the law is no defense... "

      In addition to being a legal issue, copyright violation is also a moral one. "We all have done it", and will continue to do so, but that won't ALWAYS  protect us or keep us out of hell or purgatory - or where ever people who break the law go...

      ...oh, court/jail/prison.

      Eventually, most of us will get caught, to a greater or lesser degree. Depending on the circumstances we'll get a cease and desist, a slap on the wrist, or something personally or economically much worse - even devastating. Sooner or later, if enough copyright violations are committed, if enough illegally produced, distributed and sold DVDs, etc. are handled, bad things are gonna happen.

      Then again, there are people who smoke, drink, do drugs and fornicate with abandon and live to be a hundred, while others who walk the line in all aspects of life die young.

      Don't get me wrong here, I am NOT preaching. I think what I am doing is stating the facts. Each of us has to make our own determination how far out on the copyright limb we want to go. It is a personal decision that really should be a legal decision, but due to much of the "unfairness" REAL, or IMAGINED, of some things copyright (you've seen, heard, read, listened to the arguments - and there are PLENTY), will be mostly ignored or mentally/morally avoided. Like telling ourselves, "don't go there." Sort of like that illogical logic about the tree falling in a forest and no one being there to hear it.

      Copyright laws, when explained by a knowledgeable attorney (who among us can understand all that legalese?) has not much flexibility, nor gray areas.

      Most everyone, at one time or another, sooner or later, knowingly or unknowingly violates some copyright somewhere. Some will get caught and pay the price. Some won't. It's a choice, and all choices/decisions we make have consequences.

      Posted 2 years ago #
    5. jstraub78
      Member

      Cole, Earl,

      Let me start by saying that I appreciate both of your responses!  It is wonderful to have a resource such as this where friendly people are willing to help newcomers to the craft (especially with topics that undoubtedly have been asked before).  I believe I am beginning to get the gist of the copyright issue pertaining to theater in general.  Basically it comes down to a risk/reward situation with a whole lot of ethicality thrown in.  It sounds like a lot of frustrating scenarios where you see others illegally videotaping and getting away with it (or so it seems) while you are bound in the knowledge that it isn't trully lawful and besides that, not really right either. 

      The main reasons I want to videotape this show is to get experience AND to give the kid's a nice DVD of their show.  I could see even just having them give me a blank dvd as payment enough.  However, what I foresee that concerns me a bit, is then the kid takes the dvd home, throws clips of it onto You tube, and THAT is what leads to potential problems on my part.  In fact, not too long ago I had posted a video on you tube from one of my wife's performances.  It wasn't a full show, but it was a snippet from the song "Do Re Mi" from "The Sound of Music."  Well, low and behold, it didn't take the production company too long to find it online and file a complaint with You tube, who removed it and kindly warned me that future copyright violations would result in deletion of my You tube account.  So, I know "they" are out there, watching....waiting...

      My wife checked her contract.  It stated no video taping or audio recording.  However, it also stated absolutely NO modification of the script whatsoever (which is hard to do at a high school level).  I guess what burns me is to see the other "professional" videographers who DO take the risk and get away with it (I know for a fact that the rights purchased through the theater company for that show I was talking about are exactly the same ones purchased by the high school for the same show...videotaping was definitely listed as a "no-no"). 

      Anyway, again, I appreciate your feedback on this matter.  It has helped me greatly.  Unless I find some kind of odd loophole in the contract or something more concrete, I don't think I'm going to touch this one. 

      Thanks for your help!

      Joe

      Posted 2 years ago #
    6. EarlC
      Moderator

       You can try asking for, and sometimes actually receiving, permission from the copyright holder of the play that HAS been approved for performance. (sometimes purchase of the script by and for the school includes a "performance rights" clause)

      That permission (look through the existing release wording, if any) would be to allow the creation of a video for "educational" purposes. Even this has been taken to the extreme, but it might allow for some flexibility in seeing that each performer received one to "study and learn" from - a kinda sorta loophole that some have utilized for getting around the production, sale and distribution issues.

      Posted 2 years ago #
    7. yourvideographer
      Member

      This whole topic of copyright got me thinking.  What about those Videographers who shoot weddings and funerals that use copyrighted music in their videos.  Here is an example of one I found on the web.  You can just click on Dancing Segment on this website http://www.yourvideographer.com/samples.html  This Videographer uses the song "Let's Get It Started" by The Black Eyed Peas and The Black Eyed Peas are signed with A&M Records.  Unless the videographer got permission from A&M Records to use this song, isn't this illegal that the videographer is using this music, if he didn't get permission?  The reason why I ask this is, I want to know what is right, because I am starting my foundation to build a video production business and I do not want to go down the wrong path legally and ethically.

       

      Posted 2 years ago #
    8. Cville
      Member

       yourvideographer makes a great point with his  post about popular music.  I can answer this question It is absolutly illegal to use that music in any production with out aquiring the rites.  Unless you hav a big budget those rites are almost impossible to aquire.

      I know that many video services will use popular music in productions for weddings etc.  And they knowingly violate the copyright and therfore take a very real financial risk with their business.

      For instance at our Church we have a performance license.  It allows us to perform secular music that we  want to incorporate into our service.  It also allows us to play recorded music for pre service or other events.  This license is even required if you want to play recorded music say during an exercise class.

      This can be a never ending topic but I think an important one.

      I am including a link to a website that is geared toward Churches but has alot of good copyright information.

      http://www.copyrightsolver.com/CopyrightServices.aspx

      Posted 2 years ago #
    9. EarlC
      Moderator

      The challenge, and questions about use thereof, to event video coverage is eternal. There is NO solid and affordable legal recourse to the issue of producing an event that uses, right or wrong, any copyrighted music, images, designs, copy or other material created, owned and sold or distributed by another. Decide what YOU are willing to do, your personal "fear factor" or "fear level" of the possible consequences, the odds of getting called out or caught, then do what you will.

      Posted 2 years ago #
    10. Observations and opinions. Do with it as you will...

      I am but a fledgling videographer and my naivety of such things leaves me with something af a disturbing view of this profession and the willingness of a few to dishonor fellow artists by trying to justify ignoring one of the few laws that protect our work. This naivety also does not understand how ones so willing to ignore the rights of another, be able to call themselves a professional while looking someone straight in the eye.

      As I read these posts about copyrights, I hear others internal voices trying to justify their actions with quotes such as, "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" or "it's only illegal if your get caught". I have been guilty of using others material without permission in my early work as I start out, but as I learn and pay attention to those legalities and rights, I have also chosen not to repeat those actions in any future endeavor. I do shiver at what might be the perceptions of those just coming into this form of artistic expression as they read these posts.

      I choose the moral high ground so that I may sleep comfortably and not have to look over my shoulder. I respect people like EarlC, Birdcat, Composite1 and Coreece  who are not afraid to share their talents and skills with others. They have shown the maturity to give their opinion and not argue another's.

      We can legally use the works of another in our projects if we follow the protocols that are laid out to us and get the appropriate permissions. And like any other piece of equipment we look for to do our jobs, if it is too expensive, we do without and manage a work-around or find a way to raise the money needed.

      The one fear I have about all this...  where complacency of such laws dilute them to such a state that it is almost impossible to be protected by them now and in the future. I hope I do not see the seeds of that here. I also know that the big companies will not go down without a fight. I still remember what happened to Napster, their act alikes and their patrons, just a few short years ago.

      Life is not a guided tour nor a destination.
      It is a journey. Take the time to enjoy your family, friends and surroundings.
      Build memories. Share experiences. Travel at sight speed not light speed. (C)
      Posted 2 years ago #
    11. yourvideographer
      Member

      Thank you Cville!  That was a Great Introspective viewpoint, Crafters of Light!  I have my moral compass that I live by and was established by my family.  The decisions I make in life should give honor and respect to my family and friends.  One thing thou, I don't expect or judge people for what their moral compass is, I have enough to worry about.  The only time, I start barking, if it effects my reputation, family or friends.  I did the samethings like Crafters did in the past.  It is funny thou, I thought I was doing the right thing and now I look back and think, "What was I thinking...."  I believe we all make mistakes and we have a choice to learn from them. 

      Chad

       

      Posted 2 years ago #
    12. SteveMann
      Member

      If the musical is leased from MTI (Music Theater Incorporated), then ask if the school purchased the video rights with the performance license.  It's usually pretty reasonable and available for most of the older titles.  Not, though, that the video license from MTI only allows distribution to the cast and crew.

      Posted 2 years ago #

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