High-Definition Cameras arent good?

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High-Definition Cameras arent good?

(25 posts)

Started 4 months ago by 1cmanny1
Latest reply from Matt561

1cmanny1
Member

Im new to this and was looking at some Cameras, but i was hearing, lots of people didnt think High-Definition is good.Something about its hard to edit? Why is it? And they were saying most people dont have HD-TV, but we can still play HD movies on SD-TVs cant we?

Also i was looking at the Canon HV30 and the Sony HDR-HC9. They are both on Mini DV arent they? Also i was hearing people say DV is better then DVD and hard drive, also because DVD's and Hard Drives are hard to edit, or something about Compression...?

Also, surly a High-Definition Camera, wouldn't be able to record long on a Mini-DV?

Also, can we turn Hi Dif Cameras off, High Dif if we wanted to?

Please Inlight me

Thanks

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
robgrauert
Member

Wow, thats a lot of questions. I haven't worked with HD but I still know a think or two. Here goes:

   "Im new to this and was looking at some Cameras, but i was hearing, lots of people didnt think High-Definition is good.Something about its hard to edit? Why is it?"

HD is good, but what format your recording and how powerful your computer is determines whether or not you will have a hard time with HD. I would assume that the consumer camcorders don't need very powerful computers to edit the footage, although throughout my time on the Videomaker forum, people have mentioned some formats that I've never heard of before, like .VOD for instance. Some editing programs might not support the format you are shooting and that's where you may run into problems as well.

   "And they were saying most people dont have HD-TV, but we can still play HD movies on SD-TVs cant we?"

It's true, most people don't have HDTVs. They are pretty expensive still, and I've heard they rack up your electric bill if you get big ones. I'm not sure if you can play HD movies on a standard definition TV. I do know that you will need a Blu-Ray DVD player though, since that will be the standard media for HD content.

   "Also i was looking at the Canon HV30 and the Sony HDR-HC9. They are both on Mini DV arent they?

I don't know off the top of my head if the HV30 or HDR-HC9 are miniDV or not. They sound like consumer cameras, which I don't bother looking at. Not to sound rude, but that should be easy to identify if you are really looking into those cameras. Personally, I wouldn't get a camera that records to a DVD. I would assume that means the video is highly compressed, which means lower quality. And how do you get the footage off? I wouldn't want a hard drive camera because the footage isn't going to be backed up onto anything. I think tape is the way to go, although I would record to a P2 card because I've heard they are very reliable and robust.

   "Also, surly a High-Definition Camera, wouldn't be able to record long on a Mini-DV?"

The HDV format can be recorded onto miniDV tapes. I don't think you can use any miniDV tape though; I think it has to be one that made for HDV. I could be wrong about that. HDV is compressed to files sizes only a bit larger than DV, so if the tape says 63 minutes, then you can get 63 minutes. The downfall is that you're recording high definition, which is a higher resolution than SD. So you would naturally think the file sizes would be much larger, but when you record with the HDV codec, you're compressing the video (throwing out information in a way that tricks you eye into thinking it's still there) to get the smaller file sizes. As a result, it lowers quality. Now you might not see it when you see the image alone, but side by side to an image that was recorded with something like the DVCPro HD format or XDCam HD, the difference is probably quite clear. I've never done that test before though.

   "Also, can we turn Hi Dif Cameras off, High Dif if we wanted to?"

I think some cameras do record both HD and SD, but you're not "turning off" HD. You're choosing a difference resolution to record in, the SD resolution.

Hopefully that helps....

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
chrisColorado
Member

Robgrauert gave you a lot of good answers, so I will only answer some of your questions:

...i was hearing, lots of people didnt think High-Definition is good.Something about its hard to edit? Why is it?

Like robgrauert said, it has to do with whether the software you like can handle editing HD footage. And whether you and software can handle the wild formats. My boss's cameras shoot AVCHD and even though there's .MLP, .CIF and some others, the only ones we can edit are the .MTS files. That's three different file formats in one camera alone! And that's just the Hi-Def files!!!! The SD is recorded as mpegs. Very confusing first day on the job, I can tell you.

And they were saying most people dont have HD-TV, but we can still play HD movies on SD-TVs cant we?

Maybe. Though people who go all out will have burned their movie to Blu-ray disks which require a blu-ray player. If you don't have it, you're out of luck. People I know don't. Then the movie maker's out of luck. Besides, why go to all the trouble to work with HD(editing, formats, render times...) when you're going to be watching in SD anyway? So it's HD. Big whoop. I'd go the easier route and shoot and edit SD if you're going to watch SD.

Also i was hearing people say DV is better then DVD and hard drive, also because DVD's and Hard Drives are hard to edit, or something about Compression...?

That's another reason my boss's cameras have so many file formats. They are Hard Disk Drive(HDD) cameras. You have to backup the .MTS HD files with the other wild formats. I know that .CIF or whatever files are clip info for backup. I don't know about DVD, but I agree with robgrauert: how would you get your footage off? I use Flash Media which is only available in SD. It's .AIFF files or something, but i don't notice really because there's only one type of file, so that's the one I'm editing.

Also, can we turn Hi Dif Cameras off, High Dif if we wanted to?

All HD cameras I've seen record SD as well. You change the setting on your camera, but it's not really like turning HD off. It's more like choosing what you will have for lunch today: maybe you can turn your pizza taste buds off.

Good luck!

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
birdcat
Member

One thing to consider is if you are recording HD on MiniDV (HDV), and using the default sound recording for it (not an external sound recording device) you will NOT be getting full 48 bit PCM audio - They sacrificed audio quality on the tape to make room for the extra video information - This is not a problem on hard drive or flash.

I will say that editing AVCHD in Sony Vegas Pro 8 on my Core 2 Duo laptop is not a problem - It is, however, on my 2.53 GHz Pentium 4 desktop - You need a fairly current high end machine to edit HD smoothly - There are utilities that will convert AVCHD to MPEG2 for easier editing however.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
robgrauert
Member

damn, I didn't know HDV sacrificed audio quality as well. That's lame.

What if you hook up a hard drive to your camcorder instead?

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
1cmanny1
Member

Im stilll not sure weather i should get a DVD, hard-drive, or a Mini-Dv!

I have a High-dif TV,and a PS3 by the way.

so did you say, if we have a miniDV, it lowers the quality?

How do we get the Footage off the camera to the computer? Is it just a USBCable?

Also heres what i found on a diploma in Digital film web site,

"Many cameras today record to DVD or hard disc.

Unfortunately, due to proprietary compression used,

these cameras do not integrate with professional style

software, and are really only useful for home movies. Despite

what salesmen may tell you, these cameras are not suiltable

for this course. You will need a camera that records to miniDV tape and has a Firewire (IEEE1394 or iLink) connection"

But you think the only reason we shouldnt use a DVD or Hard drive camera is, we need a good Computer to run the software?

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
robgrauert
Member

"so did you say, if we have a miniDV, it lowers the quality?"

It has more to do about what format you are recording, such as HDV, DVCPro HD, XDCam HD, etc. Those last 2 aren't consumer formats, but I was just trying to give examples and make the point that you need to research the cameras you are interested in and see how the formats they record work.

"How do we get the Footage off the camera to the computer? Is it just a USBCable?"

DV requires firewire. There are other methods, but they are higher end. I'm not sure what you would use for a camcorder that records to DVDs or HDD though.

"But you think the only reason we shouldnt use a DVD or Hard drive camera is, we need a good Computer to run the software?"

No. It's because the consumer formats suck and professionals who use professional editing programs will never use them. So why bother creating a product that would cover the crappy consumer formats if it's a product aimed toward pros.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
jerronsmith
Moderator

>>Im new to this and was looking at some Cameras, but i was hearing, lots of people didnt think High-Definition is good.Something about its hard to edit? Why is it? And they were saying most people dont have HD-TV, but we can still play HD movies on SD-TVs cant we?<<

No you can't. To view HD content you need an player that can handle the High Def media (like your PS3) and a display device that can display high def content (like your high def tvs). You can hook a PS3 up to an sd tv but it just won't look as good.

>>Also i was looking at the Canon HV30 and the Sony HDR-HC9. They are both on Mini DV arent they? Also i was hearing people say DV is better then DVD and hard drive, also because DVD's and Hard Drives are hard to edit, or something about Compression...?<<

Every device is a little different but the cameras that record to DVD tend to do so in the MPEG-2 format. MPEG-2 isn't really an editing format it was intended for the final delivery of content. Because of that some high end editing systems don't work with it at all and the ones that do often don't work with it that well. In general cameras like this are designed for the home video user only. Some of the cameras that record onto hdd or solid state media like Flash drives are just as bad, when it comes to compressing footage. Just about everything is compressed so , it all depends on how the individual device compresses your footage. Mini-DV tape (still a compressed format) tends to be the semi-pro standard for SD cameras. The main weakness of Mini-DV is that the tapes only hold about an hour of footage.

>>Also, surly a High-Definition Camera, wouldn't be able to record long on a Mini-DV?<<

HD cameras that record onto mini-Dv tapes are actually recording in HDV format. They can hold the same amount of footage that you would get shooting SD. They do this by using the MPEG-2 codec to compress your footage. At the moment most of the major editing applications (Avid, FCP, Premiere) offer some form of native HDV editing or some other work-flow workaround to allow you to edit HDV footage. But because it is encoded using MPEG-2 there can be some issues since MPEG isn't a frame based system.

>>Also, can we turn Hi Dif Cameras off, High Dif if we wanted to?<<

All of the High Def cameras I have worked with have a switch or a menu setting that allows you to shoot in HD but capture in either HD or SD. Though I like some of the lower end consumer HDV cameras do not offer this ability.

Jerron Smith
Editor-Animator-Educator

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
chrisColorado
Member

robgrauert: "DV requires firewire. There are other methods, but they are higher end. I'm not sure what you would use for a camcorder that records to DVDs or HDD though."

HDD uses USB to hook to the computer.

1cmanny1: After seeing what jerronsmith has to say about DVD cameras and your article, I wouldn't get a DVD camera. Whether you get DVD, MiniDV or HDD is up to you. HDD hooks up using USB. It's pretty good quality stuff as far as the HD footage goes, but i'm not very picky that way.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
1cmanny1
Member

what is a fire wire? i thought that was what we used before USB came in. why do we use fire wires? are they faster or something?

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
jerronsmith
Moderator

>>what is a fire wire? i thought that was what we used before USB came in. why do we use fire wires? are they faster or something<<

Firewire is the colloquial term for IEEE1394 (also called i-link). It is a type of I/O (input/output) connection used on digital devices. A firewire cable is used to connect the firewire port on the device to the firewire port on the computer (or other device). Firewire ports are standard on every digital video camera I have ever seen or worked with. While there are some people here who will tell you that USB 2.0 is just as good I must warn you this is not in any fashion a professional or even pro-sumer working standard. If you are using a mini-DV camera you have to capture using a firewire connection, I don't think that any of the professional level editing applications will support dv capture in any other fashion. Additionally, firewire capture offers the added benefit of camera/deck control. Firewire connections are also the standard for external hard drives on the MAC platform and I always suggest that if you are going to edit from a hard drive that it be firewire since it is faster than USB 2.0.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
robgrauert
Member

I don't disagree with jerronsmith comment: "While there are some people here who will tell you that USB 2.0 is just as good I must warn you this is not in any fashion a professional or even pro-sumer working standard." It's just that I've heard that USB doesn't support video...period. Maybe he's heard differently though...

The best thing to do is capture via firewire if you're working with miniDV tapes.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
ralck
Member

It's not that USB doesn't support video, it's that most professional NLE's don't necessarily support capture over USB (I'm not positive about this). I think this is because firewire offers more bandwidth and the standard allows for other functions like camera control as jerronsmith mentioned? Also the fact that the USB standard isn't all that standardized.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
1cmanny1
Member

what is a deck?

Also why MAC? Cant PCs do just as good?

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
chrisColorado
Member

1. PCs do just as good. I say better. Final Cut people will like Macs.

2. You don't capture with USB, you import. Very different, much faster than capturing with firewire. Supported by Final Cut, Avid, and Sony Vegas.

3. I'm a pro and use USB, not firewire. We bang things out in a very short time for important conventions and things like that. If we don't do it fast, we lose customers/clients. With USB you can just grab your files, slam em on your computer, slam em into your software and go from there.

There are pros out there who don't know about any way to make movies but use MiniDV, firewire, Macs and Final Cut Pro. I feel sorry for these people because there are better, faster ways to do things. My Digital Editing teacher in college was this way. He was amazed by Sony Vegas and how my USB camera worked like a charm without having to mess with capturing settings.

I can explain better but am in a hurry. Catch ya later!

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
birdcat
Member

I didn't know HDV sacrificed audio quality as well. That's lame.

What if you hook up a hard drive to your camcorder instead?

Sony makes piggyback HD recorders (so do others) that are meant to get by this problem - To my knowledge, it is a limitation of the HDV on tape recording, not HD or flash.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
jerronsmith
Moderator

>>1. PCs do just as good. I say better. Final Cut people will like Macs.<<

You are right this is debatable. The one advantage that FCP has is that the software and hardware maker are the same, so FCP is optimized to run on the MAC OS with the Mac hardware. This is what allowed them to have the real time effects preview before others could. I personally use both. The one issue in reference to firewire ports though is that firewire is standard on all current macs but not on most PCs. For most PCs you will need an add on card.

>>2. You don't capture with USB, you import. Very different, much faster than capturing with firewire. Supported by Final Cut, Avid, and Sony Vegas.<<

You can import into any program that exists because the footage has already been converted into files. I assume this happens when you hit the pause button on the camera. This is faster, the question is what codec does the camera use when it makes the files, that is what may cause a problem. If it uses a frame based codec like dv then great, but if it uses a GOP based system like MPEG this may cause a problem. It depends on the tech of the camera.

>>3. I'm a pro and use USB, not firewire. We bang things out in a very short time for important conventions and things like that. If we don't do it fast, we lose customers/clients. With USB you can just grab your files, slam em on your computer, slam em into your software and go from there.<<

From your posts it seems that you mostly work for a smaller boutique style shop or run your own company. A professional standard would refer to what the majority of the industry uses. And to be honest I should have clarified for everyone that recording to tape is the broadcast industry standard, not necessarily the standard for event, or corporate work. There are several reasons that the broadcast industry still tends to prefer tape not the least of which is the quality and the ease and stability of backups.

>>There are pros out there who don't know about any way to make movies but use MiniDV, firewire, Macs and Final Cut Pro. I feel sorry for these people because there are better, faster ways to do things. My Digital Editing teacher in college was this way. He was amazed by Sony Vegas and how my USB camera worked like a charm without having to mess with capturing settings.<<

Again, knowing a specific bit of software is alot less about being able to get things done, since most NLEs have similar features, it is actually about being employable in specific industries and being hired to work with specific companies. If you are working directly for clients it really doesn't matter what you use because you have your own workflow and practices, if you are are working for a larger company you usually have to fit into their established workflow. for example if you know know AVID you probably won't be working for a TV station or editing on a studio feature any time in the future.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
jerronsmith
Moderator

Rob,

About USB, do you mean that USB hard drives don't support editing from them or that USB connections don't support capturing?

You can't edit from them, though I don't suggest it since they are slower than Firewire drives, but if the applications supported it you could in theory capture from the usb connection on a dv camera.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
1cmanny1
Member

So, what is final cut? is it like Photo shop and Sony vegas? Or is it more like after effects?

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
jerronsmith
Moderator

>>what is a deck?<<

A deck is basically a vtr (video tape recorder), it connects to a computer via firewire (it doesn't have to connect via firewire but the ones I work with are designed to). You don't technically need one since a firewire camcorder also functions as a deck. I just don't like to use cameras as decks because I don't like fast forwarding and rewinding on the camera I shoot on.

>> So, what is final cut? is it like Photo shop and Sony vegas? Or is it more like after effects?<<

Final Cut is shorthand for Apple Final Cut Pro. It is a Mac only desktop video editing application. It is very popular for the indy film and HD film editing crowds. Photoshop and Sony Vegas are nothing like each other. Photoshop is the industry standard pixel based image editing application, it has no real competitors. Sony Vegas is a video editing application (like Final Cut Pro, Premiere Pro or Avid), it isn't standard in any industry that I am familiar with but has a solid core of devoted users and from everything I hear is a very good application.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
jerronsmith
Moderator

"You can't edit from them, though I don't suggest it since they are slower than Firewire drives, but if the applications supported it you could in theory capture from the usb connection on a dv camera."

In the post above I meant:

You can edit from usb hard drives but I wouldn't suggest it. They just don't handle the data throughput quickly enough.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
chrisColorado
Member

I was going to explain more about my post above, but jerronsmith did a great job already! 1cmanny1, you are in good hands!

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
1cmanny1
Member

Thanks guys! you just about answered all my questions!

So all we need to edit it, if we got a mac, is final cut?

do you have any good suggestions on cameras? Maybe around a $1000?

and maybe High Dif?

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
D0n
Member

that canon you mentioned in your first post looks really good. Does the sony have external mic inputs?

look at a macbook and max out the ram.

Imovie (hd and '08) come with it and will get you started.

Final cut Express will suffice when you are proficient with Imovie, and want to move up.

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM
Matt561
Member

Hi, 1cmanny1

I have a Sony HDR-HC7 (The HC9 is just the new version of the HC7) And i love the thing, video quality in daylight is stunning. And its actualy not too bad in low light either for a consumer/prosumer camcorder (I just use the preset "twilight" and it suprisingly works really well. It also has a mic jack to hook up external mics aswell, I just bought a Rode videomic and it works great with the HC7. I'v also heard the HV30 is a great camcorder compareable to the Sony but at a cheaper price (I chose the HC7 for the 240fps mode it has) If I were to recommend a camcorder to someone it would be one of those two.

Heres a link to a little video I made, So you can see some video from the camcorder. Its was made from a bunch of the footage i captured from 06 to 07 with my HC7. http://youtube.com/watch?v=N-SnEPpCbMc

Make sure to click the "watch in high quality" tab below the video, Keep in mind though that its still youtube so the quality is not even NEAR the actualy video quality.

Hope this helps, Good luck.

Matt

Posted 4 months ago # Login to Send PM