Codecs and File Transfer « Videomaker Community Forums

nobody
Member

Without getting into my horror story that took me weeks to fix, I'd like input from software junkies like Lee and anyone who regularly transfers video files between NLE software programs. I thought I knew the basics and even did a lot of researching on codecs. However, the more I found out, the answers became more and more nebulous.

First of all, is there such a thing a "lossless" file transfer? Most of what I found out says "no." So is there a codec that is almost perfect - with imperceptible loss after several transfers?

In the past, I have always used the true, time-tested method of output to tape and back again into another program via the camcorder. So I'm smarter now and output/input with AVI files. Seems to work (on small monitor) until I review my final draft on big screen and find out that it's not only out-of-synch but picture is not only lousy, but also has flickering whenever movement occurs.

After a lot of makeup work, I do more research and find out that file size is the culprit for synch issues.

Now I'm a simple old man. I just want to know how to transfer video files between programs without problems. Since there is a definite issue with file size, what are the parameters? An answer in minutes would be most helpful - is it 15 minutes, Â½ hour, or more than one hour?

Maybe I should just stick with AV/DVI tape transfer?

Phil

Posted 8 years ago #
nobody
Member

If you render the video out as an Uncompressed AVI you should be fine.

Posted 8 years ago #
nobody
Member

Hi Phil

I don't know why you would ever have to go back to tape. When you render a DV-encoded file, you're writing binary data that doesn't change whether you store it on digital tape or on your hard drive. But, per our previous discussions, simply picking [AVI] as a render option doesn't necessarily mean that the program will pick the DV codec.

Sometimes, programs don't automatically render AVI files in DV format. They render them at the so-called multimedia screen size (320X240). This will look fine on a computer screen, but not great full-screen on a TV. This might be your problem. Make sure the AVI file you render is DV - 720X480. For example, I know that Magix and Videowave renders AVI files at 320X240 unless you specify otherwise.

Although uncompressed AVI is the most compatible, I would recommend caution when rendering an uncompressed AVI file. You can expect the filesize to be much greater than an equivalent DV file. If your hard drive is FAT32 formatted, the max. filesize for a single file will be limited to 4 gigs. So, if your video is too long, you might not be able to render the entire uncompressed video on your hard drive.

In a perfect world, if your source files are DV, and you render DV, you shouldn't get a quality loss - and any program that edits DV should be able to load it. If this is not the case, then here's yet another arguement in support of Vegas - it'll load anything - even renders from inferior programs!!! Honest :).

Posted 8 years ago #
nobody
Member

Thanks,

Ok, understand the screen size issue but don't think that was a problem. Likewise the 4 gig thing; I have the hd set for the other one (skinny 32?).

Guess what I'm asking is what compression (codec)to use? I have to pick something. I can't see using an uncompressed file - might just as well export to tape and save file space. When I went looking for info, I couldn't find anything that rated codecs for quality but I did find people asking the same question.

I do know that both programs have to have the same codec and Magix allows one to pick an alternative.

There are also other options like frame rate and frame type of which I know nothing.

And the file size issue popped up everywhere. Not because it didn't load but because large files (over a Â½ hour?) have an audio synch problem.

And then there's the issue of scene recognition. Files over x amount can't be opened.

See why I'm still confounded as to what to use? Hint, hint.

Phil

Yeah, I'm saving my pennies to get to Vegas. Gonna take a big jar.

Posted 8 years ago #
nobody
Member

Hey Phil

Just so you can learn some jargon, FAT stands for File Allocation Table. "Skinny 32: is actually NTFS (NT File System). BTW, you should also be aware that DV is a compressed format. An uncompressed AVI file would be about five times larger than the DV file you usually write back to tape!

Phil, what you want to accomplish is to render the type of file you normally write back to tape, but write it to a file on your harddrive instead. You create this type of file by selecting DV, when rendering. With the software you're using you probably don't have a choice of DV codecs. You'll end up using the standard Microsoft DV Codec. You may have a choice of selecting other AVI codecs, but, none of those will do. You must specify DV. As for the sync problem - DV encoded files do not positively sync the audio and video, so it is inevitable that they will drift over time. However, a half-hour DV video file should be able to maintan the sync with its audio track, unless you're using that software, that you say never gives you any problems. Are you saying that they are in sync when you preview them, but go out of sync during render? If that's the case, I'd toss the software. It probably wasn't meant to render half-hour videos. If you're doing this heavy duty stuff, you need to invest in heavy duty software - You know what you have to do. How much is piece of mind worth? If you buy it before you file your taxes, you can write it off as a business expense :)

Posted 8 years ago #
nobody
Member

Thanks as always Lee, but we seem to be talking in circles.

Presuming I get Vegas (which I will), I will still want to use Studio 9 and Magix MEP2004. I just want to know how to easily go from one program to the other - how do you do it, ie. which codec. Pinnacle's default compression is "DV Video Encoder" and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see that anywhere else - I think it's proprietary. Studio does have a whole bunch of codecs from which to choose from and there's an option to choose from most any other one.

Magix DV-AVI is to a device - not a file. One must choose a codec for export to a file. Large selection and has the ability to call an external program, like Huffy which I downloaded.

As an admitted software junkie, surely you have a method that's worked for you. Cinepak, Indeo whatever. Now if you don't want to make it public, I can understand that. Maybe give me a clue?

The file size issue is a whole different story, so I probably asking too much from you. Hey, gotta try!

If I were you and you knew all the answers to the above, I'd contact Steve at Videomaker, have it published, and get paid for it.

Or you could just tell me via email and I promise to keep it secret.

Phil

Posted 8 years ago #
nobody
Member

You know Phil, I had to go back and review this thread, because I'm not really sure what your asking exactly. First you asked about "lossless" transfer. This is a term applied to digital transfers (e.g. from your DV camera to your hard drive). All you're transmitting is binary numbers. There is no analog entity involved to cause a loss. It is the same as copying a file from your CD-ROM to your hard drive. That would also be a lossless transfer.

As for file size and sync, I think you mean movie length, not file size. Anyway, I routinely sync up to two hours of video/audio for DVDs, TV, etc. so I think your sync problem is that the software you're using simply can't do it. In Vegas, the audio and video are infinitely adjustable along the timeline, so if you discover a segment out of sync, it's easily realigned in seconds.

I'm not sure why you're so concerned about codecs. DV is a codec just like cinepak or indeo, it just happens to deliver the best resolution for compressed video. Therefore, there is no reason to bother with Indeo or Cinepak, or whatever other codec you have in mind. The "secret" is avoid using any codec but DV for editing.

If Pinnacle says it renders DV, then it would have to be a standard file, not a proprietary one. I'm sure it uses the standard Microsoft DV codec. I've never experienced not being able to load a DV encoded AVI file rendered from one software, into another software. However, the only software I've never installed on my system is Pinnacle Studio. And, I don't ever intend to.

Posted 8 years ago #
nobody
Member

Lee,

This IS what I was looking for:

"DV is a codec just like cinepak or indeo, it just happens to deliver the best resolution for compressed video. Therefore, there is no reason to bother with Indeo or Cinepak, or whatever other codec you have in mind. The "secret" is avoid using any codec but DV for editing."

That answers alsmost everything since I didn't consider DV to be a codec.

Only problem that remains is how to export from Magix. There is no "DV" codec. I believe you have this software and you'll see that is no way to export a file without choosing something else. There are seven different choices that have Microsoft in the name. I have no idea of which, if any, is the standard. Now I do know how to download and install other codecs, but again, which one? Tried a Pansonic DV codec (because it has DV in its name)which works, but I have no idea if it's any better or worse than Cinepak or Indeo, whatever.

Thanks for your patience.

Phil

P.S. Discussing this on MEP2004 forum also, but nobody's come up with an answer there.

Posted 8 years ago #
mrvideo
Member

It might help to sort the issue out in your head to know that all the legacy codecs that have shipped with Windows for the past number of years are multimedia codecs. They were developed to compress video files so that they were playable on computer, and off of CDs. A DV codec doesn't compress anything, except when rendering effects. It manipulates what is already compressed 5:1 in your camcorder. A DV codec will play out to your TV. A multimedia codec will create a file for viewing on your computer.

David Hurdon

Posted 8 years ago #
nobody
Member

I haven't played with Magix for a while. I deleted it. I only like the stock video they gave. However, if my memory serves me: From the FILE Menu, choose EXPORT MOVIE->VIDEO as DV-AVI. Fill out the dialog box about smart rendering, etc. Don't transfer it back to device - save it as a file on your disk.

I think that you've got to forget about codecs in general and focus on the following: Indeo, Cinepak, etc. are for low resolution files on your computer. Only use DV for editing. Use MPEG-2 for DVDs, MPEG-1 for Video CDs. Windows Media, Real Player, or Quicktime (IMO: in that order of preference) for streaming on the Web.

Note: These aren't the only choices, but if you follow these guidelines, you'll be okay. This is not the whole story of codecs, compression, digital video, etc. but it's enough to keep you productive. Finally, look forward to the day when you acquire Vegas, and all these 'techie' bugaboo's will be history :)

Posted 8 years ago #