Actual wedding production costs

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  1. imagep
    Member

     Hey guys, I never suggested that $50/hr is to high.  I just suggested that if you are charging $50/hr, you shouldn't pretend like that is your cost.  That is your PRICE or rate, not your cost.

    My cost of labor for my employees is in the $15-$20 per hour range.  Our prices are based on rates in the $30-$100/hr range depending on skill level and cost of equipment and percieved value by the customer.  But the rate of $30-100/hr is ouor price, not our cost.  I don't pretend that a job that I sell for $1,000 cost me $1,000.  If I did that i would have no profit.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. m_parkansky
    Member

    � i apologize for the poor word choice, "spoiled" was not the one I was looking for. and I'm not saying a person can go ahead and vacation anytime they want just because they have a laptop and a business, I was just trying to make the point that there is a lot less restraint, unlike working a 40 hr week stuck in a cubicle or on a conveyor line. I'm sure business owning is hard, and competitive, I've never heard a business owner say it was easy, and the man I edit for never has a day off, and everytime i talk to him he is working no matter what time of day...I know a restaurant owner who has worked her butt off for 6 years and still has yet to bring home her own paycheck, but besides my poor word coice of "spoiled" and mentioning vacation, The facts that I mentioned are still there. You CAN make your own hours, you CAN travel and edit, and with $2,000 coming in each week, can probably choose and pay for your own insurance plan, Earl, the ones they usually offer with companies are crappy anyway. But I've went ahead and made a social issue out of this...Imagep made the point that needed to be made. You cant say that editing time is a production cost. Editing is not COSTING you anything except for the electricity in using your computer.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. EarlC
    Moderator

    Imagep - you are not, if I am to understand your postings since joining this form a few days ago, an experienced or professional video services provider. Your take on video production and its requirements and cost of doing business was evident in you initial post seeking information that would help you generate the bucks for your band booster group, and take it away from a professional video services provider.

    I cannot believe that  you see a way to compare the printing business, of which I am a 30-year veteran (newspaper and magazine) and its associated costs and wages with that of video production at any level. You are being unfair in your presumtions regarding the business and IMHO a bit over the top in taking it upon yourself to tutor someone interested in pursuing video production business on the ins and outs of a area outside your experience, knowledge and expertise.

    It is fine to debate issues, and you are most welcome (as far as I am concerned) to comment on these forums, but I do retain the right to rebut some of our philosophy and comments, especially your uninformed misstatements.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. EarlC
    Moderator

    But, Parkansky, there are probably MANY more restraints to being in business for yourself as opposed to working for the other person. Essentially, when  you are off the clock, your time is YOUR time, not the company's. More than likely you will find your "company" involvement as an independent business person to be something close to 24/7 in a whole slew of ways.

    Probably, the most difficult thing a self-employed, or independent businessperson has to contend with is his/her work ethic. If we do not put in the same rigid (more or less) routines with our own businesses as we did with our previous employers, if we start "sleeping in" or working later into the night, or taking unscheduled days off because we're simply not in the mood to work, if we actually back off a gig because we're ill, tired or missed because we overslept, we in deep poop my friend. The luxury of having specified time for work on a timeclock, where the rest of the week is ours is simply NOT present in independent business operations.

    I'm here to tell you that you are flat WRONG about insurance costs as well, not to mention hospitalization and health, life, accident, but fire, theft, liability, etc. as well. You will discover that out-of-pocket premiums for all the insurances you SHOULD have as a business far exceed your imagination - something that can be to the tune of a couple thousand a month and STILL not the best of policies. You really need to reasearch the realities of the costs of doing business and insurance is only ONE tiny facet of it.

    If you, and Imagep cannot grasp that time is money, that the time you spend actually working, is eqivalent and the same as if you had to pay someone else to do the work, you are NOT understanding the realities of the costs involved in doing business,  or how profit is conceived, or counted on the bottom line.

    Again, there's a huge gap between what some people apparently WANT to believe about the true costs and realities of running a business, and what it is. Mistakes will possibly point out some of the differences, but at what costs of the ignorance going in?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. Anonymous

    I agree with Earl..if you cannot fathom the simplest of business concepts like "time is money" how in the world are you gonna survive being self employed? ...Being your own boss is not a ticket to be a slacker..  if that is your perceived notion of starting a business.. best of luck!!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. m_parkansky
    Member

    Mmk well I'm almost positive that we have some different point of views going on here. bottom line is that if you dont spend money, its not a cost. Time = time and cost=cost. Using the worn phrase time=money to prove your point is a great way to sound like you're right. But I'm actually in the process of making a budget to present with my business plan to a get a business loan, and in this budget I need to add up all the costs and figure out an amount to ask for. Now if you're right and my work time is a production cost, wouldnt I have to add that amount into my figures? how much should i ask for...$50/hour? I may not have any business experience but even I know that that just doesnt make sense. 

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. jimcvideo
    Member

    When I go to my doctor, I pay him $what works out to about $125 an hour to listen to me whine and write me a script on a notepad.

    When I go to the quickie oil change place, I spend $35 on an oil change that takes 10 minutes. Subtract the $15 for the cost of materials, and the oil change place is charging about $60 an hour for labor, and in turn giving me service from some inexperienced high school kid who probably can't do more to an engine that change the oil. If I go to my real mechanic, I get to pay $80 an hour for him to fix whatever ails my van. $50 an hour for an experienced video producer with 12 years of experience is a pretty dang good price, if you ask me. It's probably also not what we actually get.

    Subtracting all other contracts, let's assume I get three wedding contracts a month, and it averages to about $1800 a week in wedding income. After materials, insurance, the cost of ads, TAXES, etc, I'm actually getting to keep about half of that, maybe less, so let's say I keep $900 a week, free and clear.

    $900 a week sounds like a lot at first, but let's look at the work that goes into it. Every week, I'm working on at least one wedding, possibly two or more. I spend maybe 50-60 hours a week in my editing bay, and probably another 15-20 hours or so doing business stuff such as meeting with new clients, scheduling and attending trade shows, meeting people and networking, etc, etc... So let's round that out to 70 hours of business-related work every week. Divide that by the $900 I'm still holding onto, and I'm making just under $13 an hour. My wife makes more than that!

    Of course, this is only for example, and of course I do more than just weddings. On top of that, I sometimes hire an assistant, which makes like even more complicated. If I want to keep putting food on the table, I find myself doing more than just weddings. It sounds like a lot of money, but really, it's not that much.

    Interestingly, what I see here are two inexperienced people, saying that videographers make cash hand-over fist, and several pros with years of experience saying no, not really. Who would you trust to know their stuff in this discussion if you had to pick a side?

    Don't get me wrong, video is awesome fun. I love the work, and I'm happy to spend most of my waking hours on my business, but it's not making me rich, not by any means. And the big thing to remember is that in any business, the government wants their due, especially if you actually put yourself or someone else on your payroll. A $2500 wedding video might leave you with around $1500-1700 after the feds get their cut, and that's before you even start subtracting costs for material expenses. And don't think you can fudge numbers. You have to pay the piper.

    Again, when I got into the business on my own, I thought the same thing you fresh faces are thinking, and I thought I'd get rich by doing economy wedding videos for a few hundred. It took me a while, but I realized how utterly, blatheringly stupid I actually was. It's a costly business. For people who love doing it it's worth it, but it's costly none the less.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. m_parkansky
    Member

    Those are all really good points, thanks for the post jim you have a really sound opinion.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. EarlC
    Moderator

    And he STILL doesn't GET IT, Jim! No problem here, Parkansky, like Burger King - have it your way. I've nothing more to debate here.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. yourvideographer
    Member

    I apologize for not reading all of the posts, but this is a response to some of the posts.  I believe whatever business you are running or own you need to have a passion for it.  People like to buy from people who have a passion for what they sell.  You also need to have a smart plan for your business, so you can make income for you and your business so you will survive. 

    We also need to remember that people in here and the rest of the world have many different levels of standards.  We just need to agree to disagree and respect each other's opinions and standards in here.  Believe me, I am human and I am not perfect, so don't think I am sticking my nose up in the air at this, but this is my 2 cents on this forum and I believe it is important to respect each other in here.  I have gone through situations where I lost respect for people and realized that I should have kept the respect for those people.  It is just experiencing life tough situations that taught me to always keep the respect for people, no matter how mad you get at them.  

    Also if you tell me to read the rest of the post and say you are barking up the wrong tree, I will read the rest of the posts and probably agree with you.  But for now this is my 2 cents on this.  Have a Good Day!     

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. EarlC
    Moderator

    It is really important that individuals wanting to comment regarding a thread as active as this one has become read the entire content so as to have a better handle on what they should say, or want to say, regarding the thread in total.

    Posting a "can't we all just get along" response is all fine and good, but it would perhaps come off even better if the person posting either didn't admit to having not read all in their entirety, or had a better understanding of the ongoing interactions by having read them all so as to better respond without posting a kneejerk sermon.

    Respect works on many levels and is evident, or not, in many ways - subtle and not so subtle nuances that are contained in the separate thread responses give a deeper understanding to the arguments, comments, debates and facts, and should be taken into consideration, yourvideographer, if one's post isn't going to be topic specific.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. imagep
    Member

     Hey guys, I perfectly understand that your labor is worth $50/hr.  I never said otherwise.  I just said that if you charge $50/hr hopefully your actual labor cost is less than that - or else you aint making no profit.

    I think that you are misconstruing an accounting point that I was trying to make.  Rant all you want, my accounting point is still valid.  Let me refraise it so that maybe it makes more sense to you:

    If you are charging $1,800 to produce a video, if most of the cost is labor, if your cost of labor is $50, and you only charge $50/hr, then you are not making a true profit, only a salary. 

    Or, conversely...

    If you consider a $1,700 fee for a video with X hours of labor involved, roughly billed at $50/hr, is profitable, then obviously your true labor cost is less than $50.

    Does that make any more sense?

    And by the way, working at a newspaper or magazine is nothing like being in the "print for pay" business.  I would imagine that operating a newspaper is much more complicated as you have multible clients for each product produced (the reader and the advertiser) and multible revenue streams (such as the price of each newspaper/magazine, and the advertising revenues recieved from them).

    Print for pay is much more like videography.  We meet with a client, find out what they want and expect, estimate what the artwork cost will be (based on our art labor rate), estimate what the production cost will be (based on labor and the particular equipment), estimate what consumables and COGS will be involved, give a quote, listen to the customer complain how high we are, and tell us that the place down the street only charges $XXX (less than us), listen to the customer demand that the job be finished by a particular date (which is almost impossible to achieve and still create a quality product), tactfully explain to the customer that he/she is being unrealistic, then wait and see if the customer comes back to us or goes to the lowballer (who will most likely be out of business in a few months) down the street.

    When I expanded my business from primarally offset printing to include screen printing, I had lots of people tell me "screenprinting is a whole different ballgame".  Then when I got into the sign business people told me the same thing.   - Bulldookie - .  Its exactly the same.  We deal with the same customers, we produce similar products, have the same customer issues, and the same artwork issues, and the same production issues.  Even the artwork creation and manufacturing techniques are virtually identical - or at least have very strong paralells.

    Printing is an art, just like videography.  It befuddles me how you see no similarity.

    Of course, then again, I am a moron, I have only been in business for myself for 20+ years and only happen to have a BS Degree in Business Administration with duel concentrations in economics and finance.  You guys all obviously have much more experiance in business than I do.   I appolgize if I have offended anyone here, I did not mean to.

    By the way, I went "window shopping" for equipment today.  It was very enlightening.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. imagep
    Member

     m_parkansky, I actually never intented to indicate that editing time is not a cost.  It is a cost, but probably just not a $50/hr cost.

    One of the experianced videographers here gave an example of how he only ends up making $13/hr.  The truth is, if he is willing to work for $13/hr, that is what he should base is labor cost on.  Im not suggesting that he price his work for that, but if he is willing to work for $13/hr, thats his cost.  Now, all he has to do is to raise the cost of his $900 video to $1,000 and he can start actually making a true profit of $100 per video.  If he raised it to $1,700 or more like has been suggested here, he can start making a profit of $800 or more.  Do one of those a week and thats a true profit of $40,000+ per year, PLUS the $13/hr wage that he is willing to work for.

    What these guys don't seem to understand is the difference between their actual cost and what they charge.  I don't know how I can explain it any better than I already have.   As I mentioned before, in my business, an hour of labor may cost me something like $15, I bill that at anywhere from $30-$100 per hour, but it still only cost me $15.

    In your case, unless you hire employees, considering that you only make $10/hr now, you should most likely, at least in the beginning, consider your labor cost to be $10/hr, and anything you charge above that to go towards overhead and hopefully some profit.

    I think that these guys have a lot of frustration as small business people.  The same type of frustration that I have in my related business.   They are expressing their frustration in a weird way by trying to ridicule statements that you and I have both made.

    Truthfully, I tend to do the same when "outsiders" come to the three industry forums that I actively participate in (and actually have businesses in).  I think that we both offended and stepped on toes here - we will all get over it.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. jimcvideo
    Member

    imagep,

    I don't think anyone thinks you're a moron! :-)

    Additionally, I can actually relate quite well to your background in printing. My dad ran a small print shop from the day I was born up until The late 90's, when desktop publishing was becoming a houshold thing. He considered trying to stick it out, but wound up selling off both his Heidelbergs and trading them in for paint rollers as a commercial painter. Having worked for him for some time in various positions, I agree, for a small business owner, you do pour the same creative energies into it that I pour into video. All the same, I will agree with Earl on the point that there are a lot of aspects of the business that just aren't the same.

    Turnaround time is a prime example of the difference. I've seen every step of the printing process, from the layout table to the plate machine to cuting and folding. The bottom line is that often for a print job, the end product was a relatively simple deliverable. Sure, there were complex jobs, books and bound items, but there are a lot of projects where the client needs a one-sheet product that you had a premade template for already. In the video world, there is no eqivalent. With every single project, no matter how large or small, you essentially have to start from scratch every single time. And that means that even a simple project is going to take time. If someone walks into your shop and asks for business cards, you can probably have them done by the end of the day. If somebody walks into my shop and wants to shoot a 30 second TV commercial, it's going to take a week or more, and because of the work that's required to produce it, that's just the way it is.

    I think the point Earl was trying to make in the creation of this thread is that many wedding videographers are selling their services below cost. This is something I agree with entirely. Somewhere along the lines of trying to please people, wedding videographers broke away from the mainstream world of video production, and charge for an entire video what many commercial video producers charge by the minute of finished footage. A well produced 60 minute wedding video is easily worth $3000. A Television show of that length costs over $50,000. And yet customers have the audacity to complain about prices, and video producers, not having the solidarity to stand their ground, try to appease them by lowering their prices. I mean, for as much as people comment about the expense of wedding video, I'd hate to see what happens if these folks ever had to cover the bill for the editing work of an episode of "Law & Order"

    What it comes down to is that Wedding Videographers don't charge what they're worth (well, the good ones, I've seen some $2000 wedding videos that I thought were overpriced by $2100). For whatever reason, they continue to do the work. I'd say it's akin to doctors who take rediculous pay cuts to go work in third world nations. Their knowledge hasn't changed and isn't worth less, they're just doing it for less because they enjoy the work. At least that's my theory.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. jimcvideo
    Member

    And just for the record, I don't think any (or much, at any rate) of the contention above came from new people trying to get into the world of video. I mean, that's half of what this site is all about. People who want to become video producers come in here, and like the free consultants that we are, we tell them how to do so. No big deal. People are going to pick up their camcorders anyway, may as well tell them how to do it the right way.

    The thing that can get the hair on the back of our necks to stand up is when people come in and have the audacity to claim that the work we're doing is worth less than it actually is, or that we could/should do it for less, or that they in any way, shape, or form minimize what goes into video production. People who start with phrases like"I don't see why it costs so much. I mean, you're only..." make video producers angrier than a mean drunken Irishman. Sometimes in that blinding rage we forget that some people are simply unaware of how much work goes into this business. It would be the same as if I walked into a printshop, pointed at the press operator, and asked why he's getting paid more than minimum wage? I mean, he's just standing there with a dumb look on his face. Well, from the other end of the story, you know that the pressman is actually setting and aligning plates, inking rollers, checking for bleed, mixing inks, etc, etc. You know it's a technical job, and so when I tell you your labor costs are way too high for the laughable work load, you would want to throttle me. That's just how it goes. After your first real wedding video done properly, it will all make sense.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. EarlC
    Moderator

    I know that salary or payroll is an expense no matter what formula used to boost it up, or keep it down as pertains to the bottom line. What can profit be, on paper or in reality, or to Uncle Sam, if it is declared against a low wage base? I'm pretty much talked out now for real on this subject.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. makerofvideos
    Member

    How you folks handle music usage issues in your videos? Do you use any song you want? Do you get clearance? How do you get clearance?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. makerofvideos
    Member

    I meant to write, "How DO you folks...)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. composite1
    Moderator

    I read through the thread fully and noticed that imagep and m_paransky echo the thoughts of many potential video production clients. I rarely shoot weddings because of those very ideas 'that videographers charge too much.' Yeah, if a videographer hands a client a poorly produced, poorly shot video with terrible audio and missed shots (like the vows or ring exchanges per se), then I would absolutely agree.

    But reputable videographers would not want their reputation ruined by turning out such product. And that's the point. Video production is the means to creating a 'product'. Image, the amounts and fees you mentioned are useable in a classroom setting and paransky, your rank and file logic is great for those who honorably work on the 'assembly line'. However, neither of you take into account the 'process' of making the 'final product' which is the completed film.

    If it's a case of 'Uncle Bob' running out with his little handheld 1CCD rig to get some shots of the wedding, then yeah the costs are minimal. No matter what you think, wedding videos are productions that require pre-production phase planning, production phase acquisition and post-production phase creation of the final product. Everything involved with creating the wedding video/DVD costs money. All of those costs have to be weighed in to determine proper pricing.

    The $20 DVD at wal-mart didn't cost $20 to make. In the case of 'Waterworld' or 'Titanic' that $20 DVD actually cost over $200m to make. The end product only costs $20 dollars only because there will be enough units sold which can recoup the costs of creation and promotion if not turn a profit.

    Wedding videographers don't have the luxury of selling mass units of their final product. More often than not, it's a one-shot deal. All the costs and potential profits are usually recouped by the client paying for the planning, production and editing of their wedding video. In essence, the client has become an Executive Producer. The client has hopefully, hired a professional contractor to do the work and should not only expect professional level work, but expect to pay for it as well.

    Unlike unskilled labor, contractors no matter what profession are highly trained and skilled professionals. What the client is paying for is the use of the contractor's knowledge, expertise and equipment for the completion of their project (in this case, a wedding video.) No one questions a doctor, lawyer or architect concerning their skillsets and their fees for their expertise. So why do you believe that anyone inclined to pick up a camera and turn it on is equal to someone who is a trained and experienced video professional? Do you really think Uncle Bob and a wedding video pro should be paid equally or not at all?

    Lastly, earlier I made reference to 'rank and file' thinking. $12-13 an hour is a respectable wage for unskilled labor particularly if you receive proper compensation for overtime work. What you do not take into account is as an employee you are actually paid $24-26 an hour because your employer has to match unemployment benefits and payroll taxes. If they are also matching your insurance benefits, then the price is higher.

    I can tell you from long experience that it is difficult to attract skilled video professionals for wages less than $20 an hour. If they are required to bring their own equipment, travel or take up temporary lodging as well forget it.

    You two are only looking at the base amount of the hourly wage. Personnel costs money, equipment usage costs money, the operation, care and maintenance of working facilities cost money, operational supplies cost money and the list goes on. Just like the end price of the big-budget movie DVD, the wedding video/DVD's cost must cover the expenses to create it, the personnel involved in the creation and a reasonable amount of profit to justify its creation. You cannot run an independent business with a rank and file attitude towards production costs. When calculating pricing, you want to be fair to your clients, your business and to yourself. Neglecting any of those points will put you out of business.

    H.Wolfgang Porter, Composite Media Producer
    Dreaded Enterprises Unlimited, Inc.
    http://www.dreadedenterprises.com
    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. grinner
    Member

    Per Earl's price beak down, the easy answer is to just not shoot wedding videos for less than 3k. Done.
    These same people happily pay 90 bucks an hour for car repairs. They want to pay you less?
    shooooot. They can have uncle Bob shoot it if not wanting a great keepsake.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. composite1
    Moderator

    Grinner,

    There's nothing wrong with a flat-rate package long as the producer can live with it. I just found the pricing logic behind the two objectors criminally naieve. You try going to a bank or investors for production financing with that kind of financial logic and you won't get through the door.

    This very topic is discussed by a panel of high-end wedding filmmakers in the 'Next Level of Wedding Video' thread. Two of the panelist still shoot their productions on film while others shoot in proHD formats. For 3k from those guys you'd barely get a 'cuts' only production.

    The problem I've found with video production in general, is that clients view it as a 'luxury item' still. Film and Television are still in their minds something 'over there' that's out of their reach that only 'Hollywood' makes. Forget the fact that particularly for small business video has become a necessary expense to get the word out and with the internet, it's soooo much cheaper to get going and maintain a presence.

    Wedding videos are still seen as a 'status item'. I mean really, to get married all you need is a couple of witnesses, $50+(depending on your state), be male and female (depending on your state) and be able to sign the paperwork. Everything else is just showing off. But, since getting married is a big deal and most of us would like to show off, you would think that to record the event in the best possible manner would require equal importance. A woman will spend her life savings on a dress she'll wear once, but will skimp on the photographer and videographer to record the day she wore it?

    That and we videographers are also to blame. So many of us are willing to debase ourselves just to get the business that we compromise to the point of our professional work becoming just 'a labor of love.' I guarantee you that auto mechanic, plumber or doctor loves their work too but you're going to pay for their services! It's the importance of as you say, 'the keepsake's' quality that has to be the selling point. If a client wants 'journeyman' work then that's fine. If they want a work of art, that's fine too. The client shouldn't be handed journeyman product at premium pricing and they should not expect fine art at a journeyman price.

    Why is our industry the only one that has so much trouble getting that across?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. grinner
    Member

    It's all in how it's presented. You hit the nail on the head when you said these services are status items. This is why you see so many companies now having great succuss, not offering wedding videos, but wedding highlight music videos. They shoot far less than a wedding videographer, edit MUCH less and charge 3 times as much. Why? So the mother of the bride can tell her friends what she paid for it, of course. I call this Neimen Marcus Syndrome. Purchasing something to out-do one's neighbor. lol
    Hey, so be it. I'm not fool enough to think that's not what I do for big companies. I mean, they could send out a mass email to communicate. They have an annual budget they must go through in order to be approved for the same or more next year. I help em do that.
    To your last question. When someone calls and asks a price, you tell em and they freak... you can either rationalize it, haggle with em, or keep your book open for folks who appriciate your services enough to pay what you charge. Never hesitate to boast this price. You'll find some gravitate to ya BECAUSE of what ya charge.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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